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BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#46701: Nov 17th 2016 at 9:37:26 AM

Potara fusion rules are now different than what we thoughts they were who's to say that the dance fusion really is the weaker version?

35 year old white man.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46702: Nov 17th 2016 at 9:38:10 AM

Let me see here:

Trunks doing what he did:

  • It needed proper set up, but I still think him doing it was ok. Yes, Black had a connection to Goku via stealing his body and killing Chi-Chi and Goten, but so did Trunks since it was his world Black and Zamasu were rofl stomping, and his mother that Black murdered. But in the end it was a team effort: Vegito got the ball rolling, and Trunks got the strike (well, technically, he got the split). Vegito shouldn't have had the energy limit, as him fighting against Zamasu for an hour and then defusing would have let the latter degenerate even more and make it more believable that Trunks could land the win. They should have mentioned something about Trunks' training that could have justified the new form and technique or have him just using the room of time and spirit to teach him a bit while he's in the past, and the god power rubbing off on him a little, along with Goku maybe mentioning the spirit bomb and even giving a demonstration of it.

Bad Father Goku:

  • He's a great dad when he's there. Toriyama claiming Goku has no attachment to his family likely didn't help, but he's a perfectly good dad. He tries to be there for Gohan and Chi-Chi, and Super has him working as a farmer to earn money. So stop that shit.

Evenly matched with Nappa:

  • Yeah. There's a huge gap between Nappa and Goku. 4000 vs (OVER) 8000. But when Nappa calmed down, he put up a better fight. The really strange thing is that despite the gap, Nappa didn't instantly go down, as even a Goku who was sandbagging should have rekt him with the first punch. I believe the assumption (on this board) is that Nappa's years of experience on the battlefield, legitimate skill, and innate Saiyan toughness meant that even with such a huge gap, once he started fighting smart, he was able to briefly match a non-Kaiouken using Goku. He likely would have still lost, but it would have taken at least a little bit.

So that's my two cents.

One Strip! One Strip!
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#46703: Nov 17th 2016 at 10:14:15 AM

[up][up] An Hour base vs 30 minutes base, its basic math that the potara is better. Not to mention you can't screw up potara.

BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#46704: Nov 17th 2016 at 10:19:56 AM

[up]The easier do method of the earings probably helps to but it seems like both time limits or drastically cut down.

35 year old white man.
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#46705: Nov 17th 2016 at 10:38:56 AM

The idea that it is his arc/his problem is just silly (...). [Goku Black] just showed up in Trunks' timeline to wreck shit (...).

That sounds like Trunks' problem to me tongue Black wrecking shit in his timeline is precisely why this is his problem. Black's origins are unrelated to the impact he causes. Otherwise, we might as well say that Future!17&18 were not Trunks' problem because they were made by a RRA member obsessed with Goku.

Sure, back then, Trunks was a supporting character who had his own arc that didn't require him to face Present!Cell or the Present!Androids, but when it came to his timeline, he was the one to take care of things. And now, the entire Black/Zamasu arc takes place there, with Vegeta & Goku acting as support, helping save a timeline only because their friend/son lives there. The fact that they're much stronger means they play a larger role now than Trunks did back in the Cell arc, but the fact remains that this is Trunks' problem, regardless of Black's origins.

But anyway, Trunks need not land the finishing blow just because it's his timeline. The reason I'm fine with the concept has to do with another point you mentioned:

Then we've got Zamasu introduced with Goku and pissed off by his behaviour, which helps him along his descent into KILL THE MORTALS, and both Zamasu and Black start obsessing over Goku, then we find out what Black actually did and how much of a connection he has to Goku, and the other gods/Kaioshin. But Trunks "deserves" the win despite him really just being someone who got caught up in a completely separate problem.

Black wasn't as obsessed with Goku as you're claiming, here. His true obsession is "hating all mortals", a thought that was in his head well before meeting Goku. That meeting, as well as learning of the existence of the Super Dragon Balls, were mere catalysts (not the driving force) behind his plan. Black didn't care that Goku died unceremoniously in this timeline, and Future!Zamasu never even met Goku before Trunks brought him there: an alternate self simply popped up, murdered his superior, and told him killing all mortals was possible... and that's all it took to get him on board.

The people who suffer because of this plan (or the ones we see suffer, at any rate) are the Future!Earthlings, so Trunks' friends, family, and the rebels & refugees he tries to save. Trunks is not involved in a separate problem, he is involved with the problem: "kill all mortals" affects him more than any other main character. It's because of this that Trunks becomes the antithesis to everything that Zamasu's plan stands for, and the symbol for the human resistance.

Trunks becomes all about ending the terror caused by Black. We see shades of this in his visit to Gohan, his speech to younger Trunks, and the moments he spends with the survivors. And of course, whenever Zamasu/Black makes a speech about worthless mortals, Trunks is the only one who pays attention and argues back. He starts making speeches on the worth of mortals while driving swords through Zamasu, or performing the Mafuba.

The more fitting end to Zamasu is to be undone by the mortals he despises, and that's essentially what that white glowing sword is supposed to be: mortals collectively rejecting the judgement of a petty God, and the only thematically appropriate character to channel that message is Trunks, who's been preaching it and wishing peace for the human race for the entire arc.

tl;dr: Trunks is the biggest foil for Zamasu.

(Now, the execution could've been a lot better. A bloodied Trunks with a ki blade would've been enough to finish off the injured, mutated Zamasu. No need for the inexplicable Genki Sword)

edited 17th Nov '16 11:41:03 AM by JonnasN

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46706: Nov 17th 2016 at 10:49:00 AM

Hell, I don't even mind the Genki Sword. It looked cool. It just needed some proper set-up.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46707: Nov 17th 2016 at 10:54:25 AM

The whole thing just makes me wonder why Goku or Vegeta needed to be there. He just needed training from them to become a Super Saiyan Hikari, and he apparently knew the Hope Sword technique the whole time.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46708: Nov 17th 2016 at 12:47:38 PM

They just needed to actually teach him the fucking techniques.

Ooh. So how about this: While in the past with Goku and Vegeta, Trunks asks if there's anything Goku and Vegeta can teach him to help fight Black. Goku realizes that the Spirit bomb might help so shows it to Trunks while training in the Hyper Tonic Lion Tamer but tells Trunks that even if he uses it, it might still not be enough (just as it turned out with Frieza). Trunks spends quite a bit of time ruminating on it. During this time, Goku also points out that taking energy from other sources and infusing it into himself might also help.

Everything else goes down as planned; now flash forward to the Vegito / Zamasu fight, and the one hour is almost up. Vegito realizes it's taking too long, and that Zamasu might still be alive after his time runs out, so he uses telepathy to communicate with Trunks to try a spirit bomb like he showed him.

Trunks does so, but also recalls Goku telling him that it might not do the job even against a weakened Zamasu, but then realizes that if he focused all the energy he gathered on one thing (like say, a Sword) all that concentrated power might do the job, rather then one being energy ball, thus giving him the idea to try his Spirit Sword trick. Everything goes down as we then see, but at least it's set up before hand instead of coming out of nowhere.

One Strip! One Strip!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#46709: Nov 17th 2016 at 1:29:43 PM

I THINK what they were trying to get at is Goku and Vegeta were the powerhouse fighters who did most of the work, and once Zamasu was weakened by their ridiculous power, Trunks finished the job. Trunks would have been easily dead if not for them. After all, his new form thingy didn't actually let him beat them on his own at all. Even back when they were separate.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46710: Nov 17th 2016 at 1:30:27 PM

If the only difference was the time limit, Elder Kai wouldn't have brought it up at all - he would've told Goku: "Quickly, use your IT to bring your son over here, fuse, and then use it to go back - you'll only need like half a second to end Buu at the speed you'll be moving at, half an hour should be an eternity more than you need".

But no, he said, explicitly that it's a more powerful way of fusion. Elder Kai does not consider the fact that it is permanent to be an advantage. After all, he's permanently fused with a witch that gives him his decrepit appearance.

Normal Fusion could've actually wound up not being enough, especially once Gohan got absorbed.

edited 17th Nov '16 1:33:39 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#46711: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:15:34 PM

I mean, considering the event of two fighters with uneven power levels trying to fuse, i.e. Goku and Vegeta, the Fusion Dance would require the stronger one to lower their power to the weaker one's level in order to make it work, while with Potara both of their full powers would be taken into account for the fusion. Potara would lead to the stronger fighter, simply because one of the fusees doesn't have to weaker himself to make the fusion work.

Granted, in the event of two fighters with equal powers trying to fuse, there'd probably be no difference in power between the two fusion methods; furthermore, the Potara has an inherent weakness as well in that one simply has to destroy one of the earrings to make the fusion impossible.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#46712: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:19:48 PM

There's absolutely nothing to suggest that. It's pretty clear that the godly Potara fusion is just a more powerful form of fusion than the mortal Metamoran fusion dance.

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
BigBlackBangBro Time Stranger Since: Sep, 2016
Time Stranger
#46714: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:25:28 PM

I wanna agree that potara fusion is stronger but the way Super is it could easily not be.

35 year old white man.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#46715: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:27:21 PM

Based on Elder Kaioshin explicitly saying that a Metamoran fusion between Goku and Gohan wouldn't be as strong as a Potara fusion between Goku and Gohan.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46716: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:27:30 PM

It's stronger if you are a Kai or Kaioshin.

For everyone else, it's functionally the same.

Well, to be precise, for anyone who's not a Super Saiyan, it's better by a extra half hour, but for Goku and Vegeta, it's not all that different from dance fusion because they burn up the energy too quickly.

One Strip! One Strip!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#46717: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:27:48 PM

I do remember a line from the manga that goes something like:

Kibitokai: "Wow! I had no idea the potara fusion was so powerful."

Old Kai: "You dolt, they have the power. The fusion has nothing to do with it."

This song needs more love.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#46718: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:46:50 PM

I mean, besides mechanical advantages, it never made much sense to me to say one fusion of the same people was unilaterally more powerful than another.

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#46719: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:48:49 PM

Good thing the Potara retcon specified Kaioshin rather than "God" because Goku and Vegeta have godly ki, and Beerus said with godly ki Goku is a god.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46720: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:49:18 PM

[up][up]It makes perfect sense when you consider it's two entirely different ways to do fusion, one a ceremony thing made by mortals and the other being the work of the gods.

edited 17th Nov '16 2:49:31 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46721: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:55:50 PM

I actually still think that the Dance was created by the Metamori's because they once saw the earring fusion, and tried to create their own version.

Same with Yardratians instant transmission and the Kaioushin Kai Kai.

If you look at the mechanicals of the mortal versions and the God versions, the former do seem like bad copies of the latter.

One Strip! One Strip!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#46722: Nov 17th 2016 at 2:59:26 PM

Has anybody linked to Masako X's second video on Episode 66?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#46724: Nov 17th 2016 at 3:06:13 PM

I was gonna link it since it seemed relevant to discussion, but I didn't know if it had been linked before.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love

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