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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46626: Nov 16th 2016 at 4:27:56 PM

You'd be surprised. 13 year old fanboys actually have the time to sit around and think up that stuff. Also access to a lot of stuff to steal from and no shame about doing it.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#46627: Nov 16th 2016 at 5:19:55 PM

I don't care, I loved the conclusion to this arc, and I think it was thematically perfect, even if it did have some minor continuity snarls. I don't have a problem with Trunks gaining a pseudo-god form, since he was stated to be stronger from training with Vegeta, and Vegeta learned Super Saiyan Blue in much the same way: through Godly Ki osmosis, and I don't have a problem with Trunks defeating Zamasu with a Spirit Bomb sword, since it's not that unbelievable that Trunks could just do the Spirit Bomb, considering how he perfectly mastered the Mafuba mere minutes previously in less than a minute. This arc was all about the idea that mortals can do unbelievable shit, if they put their mind to it.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46628: Nov 16th 2016 at 5:25:27 PM

It's not unbelievable to you that Trunks could do the Spirit Bomb?

Where did he learn it? Who taught it to him?

Because there's exactly one guy in his universe that knows how to use it and is alive to teach it to him, and as far as we know, Trunks has never actually met King Kai. Mostly because he'd need to be dead to visit King Kai in the first place.

There's no explanation for how Trunks could possibly know the Spirit Bomb.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46629: Nov 16th 2016 at 5:31:02 PM

Fine with the result. Hate the execution, and I'm sticking with that.

There are so many ways they could have set it up and they didn't, but after being so frustrated by Goku saves the day everyday, it was nice to see someone else do the job.

And yeah, this arc was more about Trunks then anyone, so seeing him step up and do the job was something I liked. Even the actual technique was pretty cool looking.

They just did a shit job of setting it up that makes me wish they'd used at least a little Foreshadowing. I'm sure there were ways they could have layed out the ground work for how things went down.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#46630: Nov 16th 2016 at 5:35:26 PM

We know he trained with East Kaioshin, maybe he learned it by proxy to a god. Or from Goku in the afterlife, as Masako X has suggested, or from North Kaio himself. Or maybe he just heard of the technique and simulated it out of desperation. All it is is draining a bit of energy from everything in the general planetary area into a big ball. Or maybe Goku did initiate its creation off-screen.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46631: Nov 16th 2016 at 5:43:41 PM

You know, for all the criticism that is levied at this series that starts with 'the only character that matters is Goku!'...

Well, for Dragon Ball pre-Adult Goku, you'd be right. Pretty much the only character that is relevant is Goku, because he winds up solving most, if not all, the problems himself. He single handedly destroys the Red Ribbon Patrol, he's the one to defeat Tien after Yamcha fails to matter at all (but he's notoriously not the one to cause Tien to Heel–Face Turn), he's the only one who stands a realistic chance against Piccolo and he's also the only one who actually matters against Piccolo the Second (who makes it extremely clear that even exhausted and beat to shit he would've still stomped all over the rest of the cast put together).

But hilariously enough, this situation is not the case in what is commonly referred to as Dragon Ball Z.

Piccolo's technique is the one that finally kills Raditz after Goku fucks it up.

Everyone has to chime in and help to defeat Vegeta - had Goku been left to his own devices Vegeta would've won and likely destroyed Earth out of spite.

Namek, from start to the Ginyu Force, didn't even have him in it, and he went out of comission shortly after arriving. Yes, he came back to save the day, but that was after the bulk of the work was done by everyone else. Basically, Gohan, Krillin, Vegeta and Dende cleared the dungeon while Goku came in to kill the boss. Yes, it would've been impossible without him... but Ginyu would've won the day for Freeza were it not for Vegeta's presence, and Goku would've never arrived in time if it weren't for Gohan and Krillin running interference until he did.

Moving on, Goku is actively detrimental towards the pragmatic solution in the Android Saga - which is to kill Gero early. He's also irresponsible when it comes to dealing with Cell, preferring to just let Gohan handle it instead of training a bit more and perhaps unlocking SSJ 2 himself. After all, he already knows it's possible - he's not surprised when Gohan transforms.

And the Buu Saga itself can be blamed mostly on Goku, who could've ended it early not once, not twice but three times, first by just instastomping Vegeta with SSJ 3, second by instastomping Buu with SSJ 3 and third by saving Gohan instead of Mr. Satan and Dende. And the day wasn't saved by Goku. Yes, he's the one who fires the Spirit Bomb but, again, if it were only up to him, Majin Buu would've won - it's Mr. Satan who ultimately saves the day. Granted, this last one is also half Vegeta's fault - he's the dumbass who wanted to do the Spirit Bomb in the first place.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46632: Nov 16th 2016 at 5:49:22 PM

Right. This is true.

I mean, I think that despite knowing this, it does feel like it's always Goku who does everything. I suppose this was Toriyama doing his thing again.

That being said, this is why I don't mind Trunks splitting Zamasu like a ripe fruit. But as has been said before, the way they did it ruined the whole thing. It needs better execution.

One Strip! One Strip!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#46633: Nov 16th 2016 at 5:50:11 PM

I've known little girls with six-pack abs. It can happen. At that age kids might not have a lot of extra fat, so.

I have never seen that, and I'm not sure I want to. Interesting nonetheless. And fair point about the GT outfit.

edited 16th Nov '16 5:58:19 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46634: Nov 16th 2016 at 5:58:24 PM

The reason it feels like it's always Goku who does everything is because you're letting the perception of people who don't really know what they're talking about color your perception of what actually happened.

If you rewatch the anime or reread the manga, you'd realize that damn near every fight is a team effort, but if you listen to the people whining on the internet, nobody is even remotely relevant except Goku. That's also why a lot of people are convinced that death has no consequences in the Dragon Ball world, and that there's never tension because 'lol everyone'll get ressed by the dragonballs anyway', conveniently forgetting to mention that if the bad guy wins, there will be nobody to resurrect everyone with the Dragon Balls later, and frequently, there won't even be Dragon Balls to resurrect people with.

The Dragon Balls didn't erase the stakes, if anything, the Dragon Balls actually raised the stakes because now the bad guy had to do something much more massive that couldn't be so easily countered with the Dragon Balls, and the bad guys had to be more of the omnicidal type.

Of course, they also conveniently forget that even if you bring people back, it's no use if the villain who killed them is still alive to kill everyone again.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#46635: Nov 16th 2016 at 6:03:10 PM

I think the problem mostly stems from the non-canon movies and GT, as well. He's literally the only one that matters in a vast majority of those. Also the idea that maybe the side characters can get to hold their own for a while, but that's only because Goku is out of commission for whatever reason. The moment he shows up serious, it's the end.

The Cell and Buu Sagas are only so weird and different because Toriyama was trying to throw the main character role onto Gohan. And even then, it's exactly the same. Other characters get to do something only because GOHAN is out of commission for whatever reason. The moment he shows up serious, it's seemingly all over. Until the "oh wait Gohan doesn't work I changed my mind" thing happened.

And there's nothing inherently wrong with this idea. But what they did with Trunks is unlike what the series has ever done before. Where Goku stepped up, failed, someone else finished the job, and that someone else is not going to take over Goku's role in the franchise from now on.

edited 16th Nov '16 6:06:29 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46636: Nov 16th 2016 at 6:10:29 PM

It's a wrong perception - Goku, without the support, would've lost against Vegeta, Ginyu, Freeza, Android 19 (whom he did lose against), Cell and Majin Buu, all for different reasons but with mostly the same result - Goku did not solve everything on his own and, in fact, would've lost and died several times without his support.

Of course, actually seeing that takes actually looking at what's happening, which is not what most of the people who popularized the notion of "only Goku matters" do.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46637: Nov 16th 2016 at 6:12:58 PM

That's because those same people only care about who kills the Big Bad. Context be damned.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46638: Nov 16th 2016 at 6:19:23 PM

I mean, I've watched all of Z, and I know full well what you're saying is true, but maybe the reason it feels like Goku is the one who solves everything is because the story makes it clear that him not being around means they've as good as lost.

Him being late in the Saiyan Saga lead to everyone getting wiped out by Nappa.

Krillin, Gohan and Bulma were in such desperate straights because he wasn't there and had to team up with the guy that was one of the dude indirectly responsible for the deaths of all of their friends, and when he did arrive, he got taken out again, and they barely survived even when Piccolo showed up all powered up and raring to go because Frieza was just that OP.

The Android Saga / Cell Saga is kicked off because he dies just before things get bad again and they all get wiped out, requiring a Set Right What Once Went Wrong gambit to fix that, and then he gets taken out again and things keep getting worse as everyone else fails to do anything to keep the situation from degenerating (or actively causes things to get worse).

Buu is the only time where he wasn't the one everyone was relying on, and look what happens: Gotenks fucks up, Gohan fucks up, and Goku bails everyone out (though only barely, and he did cause as much trouble as the villain arguably).

I think the series has really hammered home that if Goku isn't there to save the day, the day will not be saved. Even if he, as has been pointed out, doesn't really save the day much in Z.

I mean, even with all the bullshit with the—admittedly awesome looking—Spirit Sword, the only other reason Trunks even got that far was because Vegetto softened him up in order to allow Trunks to not die long enough to do that.

They had all the elements to make it plausible, but they just asspulled it instead of actually foreshadowing anything. They had his training with the Supreme Kai to explain everything and they didn't use it, and that's frustrating.

One Strip! One Strip!
LLSmoothJ (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#46639: Nov 16th 2016 at 6:24:48 PM

[up] Didn't this get lampshaded in the Buu arc where Goku actually stated that he didn't want everyone to keep depending on him to save the day (which is why he didn't go all out on Majin Buu in SSJ3 the first time)?

edited 16th Nov '16 6:38:17 PM by LLSmoothJ

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46640: Nov 16th 2016 at 6:32:22 PM

I mean, I've watched all of Z, and I know full well what you're saying is true, but maybe the reason it feels like Goku is the one who solves everything is because the story makes it clear that him not being around means they've as good as lost.

Yes, it makes it clear that him not being around means they've as good as lost. However...

Him being late in the Saiyan Saga lead to everyone getting wiped out by Nappa.

And if Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe hadn't been around, Vegeta would've killed Goku and destroyed Earth. Without them, the fight would've been as good as lost.

Krillin, Gohan and Bulma were in such desperate straights because he wasn't there and had to team up with the guy that was one of the dude indirectly responsible for the deaths of all of their friends, and when he did arrive, he got taken out again, and they barely survived even when Piccolo showed up all powered up and raring to go because Frieza was just that OP.

Yes, they were in such desperate straights because he wasn't there, but if Krillin, Gohan and Vegeta hadn't been there, Goku would've lost to Ginyu, been killed and granted the body of the most powerful Saiyan ever to Ginyu, Freeza's most loyal henchman. Ginyu's a very talented fighter - eventually he would've learned how to get so much power out of Goku's body that the need for Kaioken would be moot, and Super Saiyan is a biological thing so he should be able to learn how to do it eventually too. Or he would've lost to Freeza because he would've had no impetus to turn into a Super Saiyan or even meatshields to defend him while he used the Spirit Bomb.

The Android Saga / Cell Saga is kicked off because he dies just before things get bad again and they all get wiped out, requiring a Set Right What Once Went Wrong gambit to fix that, and then he gets taken out again and things keep getting worse as everyone else fails to do anything to keep the situation from degenerating (or actively causes things to get worse).

The android saga is kicked off because he dies early, yes - but if he hadn't died early, he would've just been killed by 17 and 18. It's not really Goku who makes the difference, it's Trunks. It's also not Goku who takes out the Big Bad, it's Gohan.

Buu is the only time where he wasn't the one everyone was relying on, and look what happens: Gotenks fucks up, Gohan fucks up, and Goku bails everyone out (though only barely, and he did cause as much trouble as the villain arguably).

You know, the fun thing here is, everyone was relying on Goku - it's just that Goku kept foisting off the duty of fixing things on his children who didn't really want it and weren't exactly ready for it either. Furthermore, Goku wasn't the one to ultimately bail everyone out - it was Mr. Satan. Had Mr. Satan not been there, Majin Buu would've won.

I think the series has really hammered home that if Goku isn't there to save the day, the day will not be saved. Even if he, as has been pointed out, doesn't really save the day much in Z.

The series has really hammered home that if Goku were alone, the day will not be saved, and that every part played in saving the world can and frequently is pivotal, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant the character is.

Because in the end, the one who saved the world from both Majin Buu and the Saiyans' stupidity and arrogance was a human without supernatural powers. The one who saved the world from Majin Buu was Mr. Satan... twice. Yes, Goku helped both times, but again, without Mr. Satan, the world would've been fucked.

I mean, even with all the bullshit with the—admittedly awesome looking—Spirit Sword, the only other reason Trunks even got that far was because Vegetto softened him up in order to allow Trunks to not die long enough to do that.

And that would be both Goku and Vegeta working together, again, not just Goku.

They had all the elements to make it plausible, but they just asspulled it instead of actually foreshadowing anything. They had his training with the Supreme Kai to explain everything and they didn't use it, and that's frustrating.

This is true - they had all the elements to actually do it well, but instead, They Just Didn't Care.

edited 16th Nov '16 6:34:06 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46641: Nov 16th 2016 at 6:38:18 PM

I do agree the "Goku does everything" meme is pretty annoying, but it's not without precedent at least. Its hard not to feel the least bit slighted when every time Goku subjects the characters to Can't Catch Up, they're basically not really contenders anymore for any future villains since they'd inevitably be on par with or stronger than Goku.

Its the classic Shonen formula played completely straight, once the main character has surpassed a rival, he moves on to bigger and stronger adversaries. The best the older rivals can manage is to just be support for the hero in his fight against said stronger rivals, or be used as a measuring stick to see if a new opponent is a match for the hero. Its the embodiment of the Japanese Spirit, and Goku being one the most famous heroes of Shonen exemplifies it.

And yea, most of the time Goku does win, its a team effort. Which goes back to the "support the hero" angle I mentioned before.

edited 16th Nov '16 6:40:17 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46642: Nov 16th 2016 at 6:51:30 PM

Thing is, that's a Shonen Action trope and Dragon Ball isn't even the worst about it.

Consider that at the end of Z:

Goku and Vegeta are almost even unless Goku uses SSJ 3, which is basically a Dangerous Forbidden Technique Cast from Hit Points.

Gohan is stronger than Goku.

Goten and Trunks can fuse to become Gotenks, who is also stronger than Goku.

Goku wasn't even close to being a match for the main bad guy's most powerful form or the two next ones in terms of strength (as in, Super Buu Gohan, Super Buu Gotenks and plain old Super Buu) and whether or not he could actually take Kid Buu in a fight is iffy - he can if dead, but if he's alive, he probably can't.

Of course, Battle of Gods onwards has Beerus and Whis, who are massively stronger than he is even now.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#46643: Nov 16th 2016 at 6:54:28 PM

I will say that a lack of explanation for the Spirit Bomb is also a lack of an opportunity for explanation. Wait for the next episode before you complain about Trunks' Spirit Bomb sword being an Ass Pull.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#46644: Nov 16th 2016 at 6:56:32 PM

Of course, Super has done everything in its power to try and make the end of Buu status quo just...not exist. Gohan is so weak he's practically a joke, Gotenks can't even fight off a copy of Vegeta who wasn't even taking the fight seriously. I guess Goku and Vegeta are still equals, but that hasn't really lead to anything interesting at all. And Beerus and Whis are these characters that Goku and Vegeta don't even seem to have the capability to get close to, given they haven't really gotten visibly stronger since RF.

edited 16th Nov '16 6:57:52 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46645: Nov 16th 2016 at 7:03:46 PM

Yea, DBZ is far from the worst offender in terms of Shonen and truthfully, it didn't dive into that trope until after Z was over.

But it is what it is, we've complained about it already. All we can do is move forward. Honestly though, if having other characters be relevant means we get another situation like we had with Trunks, then I'd rather this just be the Goku and Vegeta show, at least you know they're not going to ass pull powers all of the time (....ok, Vegeta got SSG and Blue rather flimsy, but still).

Like damn, this whole thing feels like a Pyrrhic Victory; another character finally takes center stage and it's in the worst way possible. Imagine how they'd handle Gohan if they ever decided to give him the spotlight again....

edited 16th Nov '16 7:05:06 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#46646: Nov 16th 2016 at 7:18:08 PM

We're not out of the woods yet. The little bit where "Zamasu becomes the sky", is clarified in the Jump preview as his particles spreading across the city, and yeah, he's still very much "alive".

Oh come on! Just die already! [lol]

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46647: Nov 16th 2016 at 7:19:09 PM

Jesus christ, he wasn't kidding when he said "completely immortal"

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#46648: Nov 16th 2016 at 7:21:28 PM

Fucker needs to die off already so that we can get to some new Gods of Destruction.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46649: Nov 16th 2016 at 7:22:38 PM

Even Buu wasn't this hard to kill.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#46650: Nov 16th 2016 at 7:23:59 PM

Kid Buu was more charismatic than Zamasu.


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