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Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#46476: Nov 14th 2016 at 8:28:15 PM

There is a very good reason why Toriyama prefers gags: the fights are pretty simple and straightforward. At least, that's how I saw it on the Androids saga, which I read.

Is not that surprising that Super has some pacing issues in the manga, especially on the Battle of Gods arc. I really dislike that arc in the manga. The fight with Beerus was pretty boring :/

The tournament arc was better, but I still have some issues with it.

And i'm dissapointed in how the Future Trunks saga is pretty late to the anime. Sure, I enjoyed seeing Trunks fighting Dabura, and Beerus and the two Trunks playing Mario Kart, but still, I really can't wait for the retelling!

edited 14th Nov '16 8:33:46 PM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46477: Nov 14th 2016 at 8:31:26 PM

In hindsight, he really shouldn't have let the series get so serious.

But then again, it seems like he just let the story go in the direction it was moving rather then fighting against it.

One Strip! One Strip!
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#46478: Nov 14th 2016 at 8:35:06 PM

The former builds up to the transformation. You see his muscles expanding, his hair rising and characters reacting to his power. The latter just shows him instantly becoming blue, thereby robbing the moment of the spectacle that should be there.

Here is the thing. There was no build up in the manga for the former, he just does it and that is it, everything was filler. Super is paced like the manga, probably due to Toriyama having direct input into things, and things that would have taken 2 episodes take 2 minutes.

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#46479: Nov 14th 2016 at 8:36:34 PM

Probably you had to blame the editor at the time. Still, there were some gags here and there, and the anime never forgot the filler to have some good deserved and unforgetable jokes.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46480: Nov 14th 2016 at 9:33:17 PM

Yea, I remember reading the manga for Z years later and actually being a bit shocked at how fast paced it was; things that were drawn out and focused on in the Anime are rather quick and instantaneous.

The main culprits are Goku and Vegeta's initial Super Saiyan transformations; both of them are about 2-3 minutes of them powering up, while in the manga they're literally a single page lol.

Super does kind of feel like it's going at the original Manga's pace; none of the fights so far are anywhere near as long and drawn out as Z's. So it does lack some "oomph" to it.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Deadpoolrocks Since: Sep, 2010
#46481: Nov 14th 2016 at 10:04:27 PM

Wait people miss transformations taking 10 minutes? why? that just takes away time from fighting. the only time I thought it fit was SS 3

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#46483: Nov 14th 2016 at 10:18:42 PM

I think they need consider that reading a panel in a comic book is different from watching a scene transition in an anime. Compare Naruto which is almost shot-for-shot with the manga and it still takes two episodes to do what originally took maybe half a chapter.

Obviously there are shorter scenes in the manga. Because having 6-10 pages of Goku SCREAMING AT THE CLOUDS would look really dumb in a manga. The reason people like those drawn-out scenes are due to the VA's providing excellent performances. It's not that hard to figure.

Any manga you ever read is going to feel shorter than it's anime adaption because the anime A) has to take hiatuses so as not to overtake the manga, and B) because reading comic book panels is much faster than being forced to sit through an episode of an anime, cut into 40-minute intervals with commercial breaks, opening and ending songs, etc.

That Dragonball has existed in manga format for years and most Americans probably got to blaze through completed volumes, once it, as opposed to the anime being syndicated weekly before sites like Crunchyroll were especially prominent, probably weighs in on this too.

The Super Manga was shorter intentionally, and we all knew this. It also takes longer to draw than to animate (if One Punch Man is any indication), so making shorter scenes was probably more a necessity than any superior grasp on pacing.

edited 14th Nov '16 10:31:33 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#46484: Nov 14th 2016 at 10:28:45 PM

The problem with the whole "lack of feats thing" is Toei literally wrote themselves in a corner in Episode 12, where they decide to say "Goku and Beerus fighting is sending shock waves that could destroy the whole universe!". And then they quickly had to come up with a reason why that WASN'T going to happen. And they didn't. Not really.

I think from that point onwards, they realised power had basically gone to its logical extreme and they didn't want to be bothered coming up with explanations as to why they weren't destroying all of reality literally every time SSB Goku fought something. So they scrapped having feats altogether.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#46485: Nov 15th 2016 at 3:49:25 AM

Super really is paced more like the manga than Z was, which is terrible because manga had terrible pacing.

Then of course is the Super manga which is even worse.

Bolded1 Fate, guide me from behind you!!!!!!!! Since: Mar, 2015
Fate, guide me
#46486: Nov 15th 2016 at 3:58:19 AM

They placed the whole "neutralize the strikes" thing to explain the lack of universe busting, so I just assume that Goku taught this to Vegeta to avoid massive collateral damages during the subsequent battles :p

I do agree that the whole universe busting at an early point is pretty odd, but it's a good way to show-off the powers of the godly beings : Cell vs Gohan nearly destroyed the solar system, Beerus and Goku nearly destroyed the entire universe.

And when Goku/Vegeta gains feats, they're pretty insane, like F A S T E R T H A N T I M E.

edited 15th Nov '16 4:03:46 AM by Bolded1

Nautolan picture belongs to Bonesmarinated on twitter
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#46487: Nov 15th 2016 at 5:00:26 AM

Gotta disagree with you, Cru. That Z scene of Vegetto is terrible, and Super got Vegetto's transformation right.

In both cases, we know it's a transformation he can do, so it's absolutely ridiculous to drag it out. Even for a first time transformation, the Z version is still too drawn out.

With that said, I think it's inaccurate to say that Super's pace is in line with the manga. The two are paced very differently, Super just isn't as padded as the Z anime was and that's because they're in a situation where they don't have to deal with Overtook the Manga and can structure the episodes however they want to get the desired pacing.

But it's still not as fast paced as the manga. They take a lot of episodes to cover some fairly sparse content, plot wise. The original manga didn't have fights that were as long or padded out, and moved through the plot quite quickly.

I don't think the manga felt rushed, except in later parts. It really changes over the course of the story, but the Saiyan/Freeza arcs have some good example of longer, "epic" fights without them being padded out to the point of absurdity. Ever since the shift to martial arts as a focus, Dragon Ball has steadily moved away from the longer fights with focuses on specific techniques and turned more into brawls that happen as part of a greater plot. By the Boo arc the actual fights receive very little focus and are overshadowed by sudden plot developments, leaving only things like Gotenks vs Super Boo getting much time devoted to plain fighting as Gotenks' unique antics really entertained Toriyama. I think the Saiyan - early Namek arc hit a good middle ground between the two, though.

Super's pacing -ignoring the atrocious pace of the first two arcs, because they were almost certainly stalling for time- is quite similar's to GT's. It's just how Toei pace things when they have more of a choice.

edited 15th Nov '16 5:01:32 AM by Saiga

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46488: Nov 15th 2016 at 5:14:32 AM

Yea, iirc. The Gohan vs. Buu fight lasts less than a chapter before Gotenks is absorbed and then Goku shows up. Its like "wat...."

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#46489: Nov 15th 2016 at 8:57:07 AM

[up][up]Super terrible that you disagreed with me, Saiga. You'll have to earn your place back into my heart.


I too disagree with Super being like the manga in pacing. Comics and animation are two very different mediums. What's a decent pace in manga form is WAY too fast for an anime. The manga's pacing is great for the manga, but having the anime be that brisk is bad. Like, baaaaaaaaad.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46490: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:07:13 AM

[up][up][up]

What are your thoughts on the latest ep Saiga. I'm legitimately curious as to what you have to say.

And yeah, Toriyama is more of a humour man then a combat dude, which makes it rather funny that Z (IN AMERICA!!!!) is better known for the action.

I wonder how many of his choices were done entirely because he didn't feel like doing something else (like how Super Saiyan became golden so the Colourist wouldn't need to fill in Goku's hair) or stuff like that.....that is why it's gold right? I know there are a lot of rumours, but I recall that being mentioned in one of those interviews we always see posted here.

One Strip! One Strip!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#46491: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:36:04 AM

I'm just happy Trunks got the win.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#46492: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:37:08 AM

Most of us are.

I mean, if there's anyone on this board who is unhappy about it, they haven't said anything yet, which is why I say most, cause I don't presume to speak for everyone.

I presume many things, but not that.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46493: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:46:12 AM

No one has a problem with Future Trunks killing Zamasu.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46494: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:53:29 AM

Its HOW I'm assuming. The main issue I see people harp on is just how Vegetto was "nerfed".

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46495: Nov 15th 2016 at 9:58:48 AM

I don't care about the Potara retcon much, but the fusions themselves only padded out the Saga. Just have Future Trunks use Super Saiyan Hikari to kill Black Goku, while Future Zamasu is beaten by Goku using the Evil Containment Wave. No one needed to fuse for the story here.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#46496: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:05:44 AM

Things going according to a prepared plan is against the laws of Shonen though, learning the Mafuba was always a pointless endeavor in multiple ways unless it is a future Chekhov's Gun.

No arc villain would ever go out that way in Shonen unless they did it to themselves ala Garlic Jr.

edited 15th Nov '16 10:06:04 AM by Memers

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#46497: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:18:13 AM

I don't like Trunks killing Zamasu. It feels like shameless pandering to fanboys who want him be this badass who kills bad guys with his sword while making speeches, something that was avoided back in the androids saga, where Toriyama had the wisdom o put Trunks in the backseat, despite his... questionable introduction.

This just feels like a sequel to androids saga as written by a Trunks fanboy.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46498: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:24:53 AM

There's nothing wrong with Future Trunks killing Zamasu, but there were better ways to go about it.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#46499: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:38:25 AM

Anyone but Goku is great for the series. It absolutely cheapens the series as anyone but Goku fighting the big bad is going to lose 100% of the time before, now not so much since it's a sign that the writers are considering other people.

Hell even when Gohan won one, Goku was still there. This time Goku was passed out face down in dirt and that is great!

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#46500: Nov 15th 2016 at 10:50:43 AM

[up][up][up] I kinda feel like that's a bit disingenuous. So nobody but Goku is allowed to contribute anything to plot and everyone else should just sit down like the bench warmers they are? I know that's not what you said, but your post seems to be implying that its inherently wrong for another character to save the day, like it's forbidden taboo or something and that crossing it means the the character in question is terrible.

Like damn, I agree the execution could have been better, but can you at least look at the thematic relevance of the whole thing?

edited 15th Nov '16 10:55:49 AM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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