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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#46426: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:09:54 PM

... So?

The point here is that blinding him was not exactly debilitating.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TFRazorsaw Since: Sep, 2010
#46427: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:11:22 PM

[up][up][up][up]I don't think that's worse because we've seen energy being shared in Super up to this point. And what's more we've had numerous scenes in this arc showing or reinforcing how Trunks is the figure of hope to these people. Thus, their wills reaching out to him makes sense in a general sense.

And honestly, how is worse than six people pulling off an obscure arcane ritual they'd just heard about on the first try, once they had enough people to take part in it?

But thematically, I also feel like this is the only result that could have any meaning for this arc. Between Goku and Vegeta, only Vegeta has halfway any personal stakes in this battle, and even in his case, he still has a wife and son to go home to. Vegito, Goku, or Vegeta saving the day... what would that have meant? How would that have given Trunks's arc, which has been a major thing through this entire story, any closure? Vegito winning would have been fanservice and little else.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:12:03 PM by TFRazorsaw

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46428: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:18:15 PM

You'll never see me praise the Super Saiyan God ritual. I don't know anyone that likes it, so my feelings on that and the Spirit Bomb Sword are equally negative.

No one has a problem with Future Trunks being the one to kill Zamasu either, but that way the Super anime went about it is badly executed to those critical of it.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:23:57 PM by VeryMelon

TFRazorsaw Since: Sep, 2010
#46429: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:19:13 PM

That's fair enough, but I brought it up because one doesn't seem to be inspiring the same kind of knee jerk reaction by and large.

That being said, I think the execution for Trunks was fine for the reasons I stated already.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:19:59 PM by TFRazorsaw

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#46430: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:21:35 PM

I liked the Super Saiyan God ritual, and I'm honestly surprised to hear that there are still some people that didn't.

TFRazorsaw Since: Sep, 2010
#46431: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:24:23 PM

for a series that uses spiritual energy so much, I always found it weird that it manifests only in the form of what are effectively laser beams; the spirit bomb was an exception, but it was used mechanically as any other technique. It being used to bond or empower people in Super and having an emotional component is a welcome change for me.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46432: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:24:41 PM

[up][up][up]Most likely because it was years ago at this point. Everything you could say about it's been said.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:24:57 PM by VeryMelon

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#46433: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:29:44 PM

Yes, I was the one who included Goku being able to tell what Tien was doing behind his back and finding his way around inside Giant Piccolo's insides, which should have been dark. I don't need in depth lecturing on why Goku not being able to see was debilitating to him, but the fact that it was and then just magically fixed itself is even dumber.

Pushover. Genki Dama. Genki=Energy, Dama=Coin. Energy Coin. It's a lamer name in English than Spirit Bomb but it's more accurate and makes people think it's somehow related to spirit ball(sokidan), when it's not.

Buldogue's lawyer
TFRazorsaw Since: Sep, 2010
#46434: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:31:48 PM

[up][up] I meant that even when it was new. More people were arguing about the nature of SSG's design than the ritual. I don't think I ever even saw much backlash about the ritual.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#46435: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:33:28 PM

Technically, it means this:

What does Genki Dama mean?

Genki Dama (元気玉) is a Japanese term written in Kanji and integrally connected with Daoist culture.

Genki (元気) means Origin Ki and is the transliterated term for the Chinese Yuan Qi (元気).

Genki is the original Ki of all matter. That is to say, matter in our world is composed of molecules, and below molecules are atoms, protons, neutrons, electrons, ions, neutrinos, quarks, gluons, and progressing infinitesimally downward to more microcosmic particles.

At the very origin of all matter, in the most microcosmic realm, is our Genki. It is what lies at the core of our being, buried underneath all those many layers of particles that end with the molecules that comprise our surface body.

Genki is composed of the characteristic of the universe and is virtuous and pure. It is the higher level, original, divine part of all matter, and it is extremely dense, refined and powerful.

Chinese Daoist culture does not distinguish between organic and inorganic, alive or dead. All matter is both simultaneously living and dying (the rotating Taiji of Yin and Yang), and all matter is composed of the same sub-molecular components. Therefore people, ghosts, gods, demons, trees, rivers, mountains, fish, planets and stars all have Genki.

Genki has another Daoist correlative with the concept of De (德), often translated as Virtue, and described as a white material substance aligned with the nature of the universe. It is the inverse of Ye Li (业力), often translated as Karma, and described as a black substance aligned with wickedness.

Dama (玉) is the character representing the connection between Heaven (一) and Earth (土). The single drop stroke on the bottom right of Dama implies “Heaven’s Essence [on] Earth.”

More commonly, Dama can mean ball, jade, pearl, or a round jewel-like object. In these cases it’s usually pronounced Tama.

Thus the Genki Dama (元気玉) is a “Ball of Origin Ki” comprised of the “Essence of Heaven and Earth.”

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46436: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:36:49 PM

[up][up]In that case, I assume it's because the ritual doesn't come off as badly executed next to all the contrivances need for Future Trunks to get the kill.

edited 14th Nov '16 3:40:38 PM by VeryMelon

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#46437: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:46:48 PM

Yeah, no. Genki Dama does not translate to Energy Coin. It translates to Sphere of Origin Ki. Spirit roughly can mean Genki, as Genki is the basest energy found within all matter, and Bomb can easily just be a more dynamic way to say 'Ball' or 'Sphere'. Spirit Ball is actually a less accurate name than Spirit Bomb, since Sokidan just translates into Controllable Energy Ball.

TFRazorsaw Since: Sep, 2010
#46438: Nov 14th 2016 at 3:59:55 PM

[up][up] That's the thing. I don't think it feels contrived.

For one thing, Trunks didn't fight Zamasu when he was at 100 %. Not only had he lost his immortality, but he spent the entire episode being brutalized by Vegito, with Gowasu talking about how there was now a conflict between Zamasu's "body and soul".

I also already mentioned how they kept stressing the importance of Trunks as a figure of hope to the people of the future, so whether the "power of friendship" thing works for one or not, they were planting the seeds from the start.

You might say Trunks' jump in power might be this... but at this point, shit like that is necessary or else no one can be relevant unless they're a super saiyan god. There's simply no room for people to walk up the power steps manually, and Whis isn't the type of character to help more than he already has, what with his standards for taking on a pupil being limited to two people. And again, there's precedent for this: Piccolo + Nail being a match for first form Frieza, and later Piccolo + Kami being a match for Imperfect Cell doesn't make sense if you pay attention to the power level "math", and Super Trunks is in the same vein as that. At some point, characters are going to have to make flying jumps ahead like this, because there's no real alternative to allow them to be relevant otherwise.

The potara retcon... doesn't bother me either, because our sources for canon on canon are a character who is routinely shown to be senile (Elder Kai) and Goku, who was speculating as to why he and Vegeta defused inside Majin Buu. And even then, if this was supposed to be correct, why then did Super Buu take on the appearance of Gotenks when he absorbed him instead of separate elements of Trunks and Goten? Why are Piccolo and Fat Buu, themselves the results of a form of fusion, unaffected inside of Super Buu's body? Why is Super Buu HIMSELF unaffected by the supposedly anti-fusion abilities of his own body? You could say that "absorbing" someone else is entirely different... except the results can break and people revert to their proper forms later, just like fusion.

If anything, they cleared up what was a massive Voodoo Shark.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46439: Nov 14th 2016 at 4:03:01 PM

That's the thing. I don't think it feels contrived.

That's fine. Glad we had this talk.

TFRazorsaw Since: Sep, 2010
#46440: Nov 14th 2016 at 4:07:54 PM

I'm not trying to be dismissive, I just thought I'd put my thoughts out there in complete form.

I apologize if I've said anything wrong.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46441: Nov 14th 2016 at 4:10:14 PM

You didn't, don't worry. I was only trying to say having a different option is cool.

edited 14th Nov '16 4:19:14 PM by VeryMelon

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#46442: Nov 14th 2016 at 4:44:37 PM

I think the best example is how Goku, with no energy, running from Nova Shenron, just turned Super Saiyan Four when backed into a corner and brawled with him a little

...kind of like how Goku, with no energy, saw Krillin die and went from no energy plus Kaioken exhaustion to Super Saiyan?

How Goku, blinded by Ice Shenron, suddenly could see again and defeated him, not that the Super example seems quite as bad as GT's famous blunders.

Goku being blinded was dumb for a different reason... because he doesn't actually need his eyes at all. He can feel energy, he should be able to tell where Eis is regardless of whether he can see or not and, .

Goku points this out literally seconds after Eis attacks him again. Goku didn't need his eyes - the problem being he'd just been slashed across the eyes, so shock, and then he managed to use his other senses seconds after. He kills Eis immediately afterward. Syn takes advantage because while Goku can sense energy there's no reason to assume that this ability is foolproof. He still can't see the point of origin and Syn was sniping him by this point. We saw this with Goku getting shot through the back by Sor...

Um, wait, steering clear of this topic. Anyway.

We've also seen Goku get blindsided multiple times despite his ability to sense energy - all the precognition in the world is useless if you're not fast enough to avoid the attack, and energy attacks in Dragonball have frequently been portrayed as too fast for the protagonist to dodge - how many times has Goku opted to catch an energy ball that wasn't aimed at the planet, instead of smacking it away or dodging outright?

So Goku having to deal with temporary blindness was an interesting change of pace to me. He adapts to it fairly quickly.

not that the Super example seems quite as bad as GT's famous blunders.

Shush. What you call "blunder" I call Goku's best kill in the whole dang franchise.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#46443: Nov 14th 2016 at 4:49:39 PM

I'm fine with the resolution, i'm just annoyed at the random genkidama out of nowhere, and the retcon.

Speaking of retcons, this is an interesting fact about Black and Zamasu. This is not the first time Toriyama had made a retcon in the series, He changed Buu story in a interview.

"Though in the manga Kaiōshin said that Bibbidi made him, the truth is that one called “Boo” was not actually created by Bididi, but has existed since time immemorial. He cycled between rampages and long hibernation. During numerous iterations of this cycle, he absorbed the evil elements of mankind, becoming steadily more violent. Bibbidi merely knew the means of calling Boo from out of his long slumber. Since the current Boo is a slightly different life-form due to the changes brought about when the evil Boo was expelled, it’s not known whether he’ll still go into long hibernation."

"He absorbed the evil elements of Mankind", ergo, "humans" or "mortals".

Zamasu, as an idea character, is trying to eradicate the source of all of the Kaioshin troubles. An extremist version, of course, since his plan is as flawed as just fighting Buu himself.

I like the irony on it, the only bad thing about it is that, it depends on a retcon that is not properly stated on the manga or new anime.

This just makes me wonder: Who the hell is the God of Destruction of Universe 10, and where the hell was he when Zamasu was doing shit?

edited 14th Nov '16 5:00:28 PM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#46444: Nov 14th 2016 at 4:54:57 PM

I mean, Zamasu is clearly drinking the Kool-aid now, seeing as how he's also been killing the gods as well in order to get rid of each Universe's God of Destruction, which would remove their Angels from the field as well. He's literally making a multiverse where he is basically the only god still alive, while wiping out all the mortals as well; he's so insane at this point that he doesn't understand that he's the only one who benefits from any of this, and that he'll be stuck in a dead universe for all eternity if he actually succeeded.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
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#46445: Nov 14th 2016 at 4:57:23 PM

In battle, the most important thing is the size of your ki, and your control over it. Ki as a concept of course includes such spiritual powers as energy [genki], courage [yūki], and right-mindedness [shōki]. No matter how much you train, there are limits to physical strength, and the only way to overcome that is through ki. I think Goku was able to approach the mightiest warriors in the universe through strengthening his ki. Energy, Courage, and Right-Mindedness — The word “energy” [genki] is well-known, but if one asks if you do not have energy if you have even one sickness [byōki], it is difficult to come up with an answer. There are people who are healthy yet do not have any energy, and there are people who are sick, yet full of energy. Plus, even among people who have roughly the same power, for example, there were people who gritted their teeth and stood their ground when Piccolo Daimaō attacked them, yet there were also people who trembled and fled. Thinking about it this way, perhaps you will understand that a variety of different “ki” are indispensable in battle. In the world of Chinese martial arts, exemplified by T’ai-chi Ch’uan, ki training and control is given great importance.

In Dragon Ball, the dark mage Bobbidi invented a machine that measures and absorbs ki, but current science cannot measure ki levels or store it anywhere. However, when someone cheers you on, you can “receive energy and courage [yūki]” from them. “Ki” is something that cannot be seen with the eyes, yet it is there

Yes, in the context of Chinese derived philosophy, you are correct, but "energy" is a valid translation, too, no? And we all know Damas, the coin collection company, right? I think, if they weren't going to leave it untranslated, they should have gone with Energy Coin. After all, we have techniques named after the king of Hawaii, a game show and laughing.

Buldogue's lawyer
Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
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#46446: Nov 14th 2016 at 4:57:44 PM

Basically, a Kaioshin is doing a worse danger than Buu ever did on Universe 7

edited 14th Nov '16 4:59:18 PM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#46447: Nov 14th 2016 at 5:02:41 PM

[up][up] Except they're using the translation for dama based on the kanji, not making a reference to a currency company.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#46448: Nov 14th 2016 at 5:04:22 PM

You know another thing that really bugged me about Vegetto VS Zamasu? There's no scale to their power. There's nothing happening to demonstrate how powerful or how fast those two were.

Like, in Battle of Gods, you had Beerus and Goku moving so fast that the drops of water appeared to be frozen in space.

In the Z era, it's was rather common to see powerful beams fly off the planet or to see sphere attacks be knocked away and create a massive explosion in the distance. There are also plenty of instances where the simple act of powering up destroyed the area around them.

In that fight, there was absolutely none of that. When Vegetto and Zamasu locked fists and engaged in a strength struggle, the ground should have cratered around them several times. Vegetto's Final Kamehameha should have, like, vaporized half the city or something. I would have loved to see Vegetto and Zamasu fighting around Trunks, Gowasu, and Kaioushin and it looks as if Gowasu and Kaioushin aren't moving with Trunks just barely moving to look at the fight.

The fight certainly looked pretty but none of the feats seemed all that impressive. There was nothing we could compare it to that made it look impressive. The fight just lacked any real impact.

Really, the entire thing was like a fight in one of the video games than a fight in the anime.

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Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#46449: Nov 14th 2016 at 5:08:34 PM

[up] Agree. Which is sad because in last episode we got Zama 2 making the entire Earth tremble with his presence alone. Come Veggeto, and while they do have an intense fight, is not That intense.

Weird.

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#46450: Nov 14th 2016 at 5:13:51 PM

The planet would be destroyed if fights matched the levels the characters are supposed to be at now.


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