TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#45501: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:13:24 AM

The choice to execute or spare a defeated opponent is often a difficult one from a moral standpoint, and mercy is not undeniably wrong per se. Furthermore, the decision to leave villains to the younger (genuinely stronger) generation has its merits, even if the way Goku went about it was flawed.

"Forgetting the MacGuffin at home" is an undeniable mistake that falls into the realm of pure absent mindedness. It's not a conscious, difficult decision with pros and cons, nor is it a sound-yet-flawed plan: it's a downright botch. I'm ready to call this Goku's biggest blunder evernote .

But honestly, what bothers me is that it was simply a bad way to write Zamasu escaping the urn. I can think of a few ways it could've been accomplished without making Goku and Bulma into idiots.

Admittedly, the idea of Beerus singing Dan Dan Kokoro Hikareteku is hilarious, and something I can totally see a savvy voice director doing.

A savvy voice actor, in this case. The DB actors are being given a lot of leeway to adlib, and this one in particular used to do the same thing when he voiced Goten back in the Buu arc (Goten would occasionally hum Makafushigi Adventure when flying).

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#45502: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:05:20 AM

Also, c'mon now, Zamasu should be fast enough to fly around the earth multiple times in mere seconds, why did it take so long for him to fly to the hangar. That's just silly.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#45503: Oct 30th 2016 at 10:57:05 AM

[up]Because if there's one thing that's clear, is that the writers have no idea how fast or strong the characters they're writing are.

Also, blunders are blunders, people. Goku has a history of making mistakes that wind up putting the Earth at significantly bigger danger than it was before he made them. Don't act like this is some new height of stupidity he has reached.

He very nearly doomed the entire universe, as far as he knew, when he chose to let Goten and Trunks handle Buu instead of killing it himself. On a gamble. In order to push a duty onto the kids that he did not know if they wanted to undertake or if they would even be able to perform it for sure.

[up][up]Generally speaking, those tend to be the director's call - whether to allow them or not, anyway. There's only so much the Voice Actor can do with poor direction.

edited 30th Oct '16 11:02:31 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#45504: Oct 30th 2016 at 12:20:16 PM

Except Goku didn't spare Vegeta out of mercy, he spared him so he could fight him again. It wasn't because he thought he could change or anything like that.

[up]

Exactly, this is pretty much an established character trait for Goku, going back to Dragon Ball. There were plenty of times where the heroes could have defeated a villain sooner if not for something Goku or even Vegeta did.

Like, Future Trunks defeating Dabura and Babidi before they could revive Buu is a perfect example how easy that could have been.

[up]×3

Except it wasn't Bulma's fault that they didn't have the seal and Goku has never been that smart.

edited 30th Oct '16 12:25:50 PM by Cortez

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#45505: Oct 30th 2016 at 12:27:24 PM

This one seems far more grating then others though.

One Strip! One Strip!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#45506: Oct 30th 2016 at 12:30:56 PM

It's really not. Especially since Roshi arguably holds part of the blame this time.

Besides, the only reason it failed was because they forgot the seal, which justifies Future Zamasu having a villainous breakdown and making Black and Zamasu decide it was time to stop playing and fuse.

Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#45507: Oct 30th 2016 at 12:38:06 PM

On the whole Trunks learning the wave faster than Goku.

Goku had it down really fast but he had trouble aiming it, which was the same problem Roshi had back when he died using it.

Piccolo used it and never missed in Dragonball, so Piccolo's instrctional video was probably a better reference tool since Roshi's was flawed. That or Trunks got lucky.

I think it's a nice call back personally.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#45508: Oct 30th 2016 at 1:01:57 PM

It's only more grating to you because it's more immediately obvious.

But when it comes down to it, nobody has put the planet in more danger than Goku has.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#45509: Oct 30th 2016 at 2:00:02 PM

Like was previously said, there are different types of fuck ups on Goku's end. There's no doubt he's fucked up before, but what makes this one particularly egregious is that there's no real logic behind it beyond "Goku is a dumbass". When the stakes of your plot rely soley on character's incompetence, that's bad writing, no matter how "in-character" it is.

Here's the clear difference; Goku's prior bouts of absent-mindedness and flawed decisions still ultimately led to favorable outcomes. Sparing Vegeta eventually made him an ally, and he tried to kill Freeza after attempting to spare him, Freeza is just durable as hell and survived it. Yes, it was poor judgement to rely on Gohan and not consider his feelings on the matter, but the result was still the same and benefited in the end.

Here? The entire reason this plan fails lies squarely on him not paying attention, and unlike the prior listed, I don't really see any long-term benefits resulting from this. If we treat all fuck ups the same, then we can literally everyone in the series is an idiot and their actions can just be overlooked with that reasoning.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#45510: Oct 30th 2016 at 2:03:38 PM

There was also him forgetting the Senzu beans when they got beat up by Black and Zamasu in the future.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to admit that Toei may be going to far in how absent minded they make him.

I mean, if it turns out that Toriyama wrote him that way and they followed it, then I'll blame him as well, but until such evidence of something like that is presented, it's all on them.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#45511: Oct 30th 2016 at 2:25:45 PM

In Dragon Ball, you could excuse it since: 1) Goku's a kid, so we don't hold their idiotic moments as heavily 2) Gag Series, wasn't as serious and when things got serious, Goku made very few mistakes, or at the very least, really egregious ones.

He was barely in Z, so you could also excuse that as well since most of the time, he has good intentions behind his ignorant actions. Toei do seem to be flanderizing him for the sake of comedy tho, which I didn't mind, but when it starts effecting the actual story, then it becomes slightly problematic.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#45512: Oct 30th 2016 at 2:26:21 PM

What does it matter that they ultiimately led to favorable outcomes?

It's not like this fuckup means that the problem won't be solved and they won't be able to defeat Black and Zamasu.

This is not really any different than the fuckups that lead to Majin Buu succesfully destroying Earth. Or Freeza doing the exact same.

And I've also already explained how a lot of Goku's fuck ups were not because of his good intentions but because Goku is more interested in having a fun fight than he is in Earth being safe.

edited 30th Oct '16 2:27:07 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#45513: Oct 30th 2016 at 2:28:39 PM

Except this has no real purpose beyond prolonging the plot even further, it's literally padding. The Majin Buu and Freeza situations had a ton of variables leading up to those moments and you know that, you're just ignoring them to justify your argument.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#45514: Oct 30th 2016 at 2:32:14 PM

No.

The difference here is that this is Goku forgetting something. This is Goku making a mistake.

The others were instances of actual stupidity where Goku made several poor decisions in a row.

That's the difference.

This one is not actual stupidity.

The others were.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#45515: Oct 30th 2016 at 2:34:57 PM

So someone forgetting something crucial that benefits everyone, after already being reprimanded for doing the exact same thing as before isn't stupidity.

I think you and I have different meanings of the word.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Memers Since: Aug, 2013
#45516: Oct 30th 2016 at 2:37:27 PM

The difference its this mistake just made them fuse faster.

If Goku had the Ofuda and it didn't burn up in the time machine explosion we would have gotten an episode where Black gets the jar and either opens it or absorbs Zamasu trapped inside to fuse anyway.

edited 30th Oct '16 2:41:03 PM by Memers

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#45517: Oct 30th 2016 at 2:40:11 PM

I agree with I Am Not Creative Enough on one front. Goku's previous screw-ups aren't better because they turned out for the better back then. The better argument here is how Goku forgetting the seal is purely based on the fan idea of his stupidity, rather than his established character flaws like his past screw-ups did.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#45518: Oct 30th 2016 at 2:49:07 PM

Ok, I'll agree with that much at least. But yea, Goku's screw-ups should go beyond him simply being too absent-minded to remember something as important as the means of defeating the person you are trying to beat.

edited 30th Oct '16 2:50:18 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#45519: Oct 30th 2016 at 3:28:08 PM

This is true - this time, they played Goku as being absent minded and forgetful. Goku is not usually absent minded and forgetful. He has poor decision making skills instead.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#45520: Oct 30th 2016 at 3:29:58 PM

If Goku tried to give Zamasu a second chance and it backfired that would be in character. This is just Super turning Goku into a brain-dead moron again.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#45521: Oct 30th 2016 at 3:50:45 PM

Yeah, this whole situation just makes Goku look completely incompetent...and this is after he forgot about the senzu beans as well.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#45522: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:09:06 PM

Yeah, I was just going to say, this is the second time this arc has made Goku nearly kill everyone because he forgot to bring something crucial. And just last episode they were making a joke about wondering if Goku forgot the Mafuba urn.

Toei just needs to stop dragging things out at this point. I feel like they're starting to run out of ideas. We've had Goku getting angry, Trunks getting angry what feels like a million times, Vegeta getting angry, and people getting stabbed too many times to count.

I hope Final Form Zamasu at least does something different.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#45523: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:11:36 PM

He's got a halo on his back.

...GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#45524: Oct 30th 2016 at 4:29:32 PM

This is also the third time they went to Trunks' timeline as well, the second time accomplishing nothing beyond confirmation on who Black is and the Super Trunks thing.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#45525: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:51:39 PM

Alright, place your bets; do you guys think SSB Vegetto will surpass Beerus' full power? The old scale is off since unless we're talking exponential units like the Richter Scale, Goku can't be a 6 since his SSB x10 still doesn't surpass Beerus, but he does seem a fraction of the strength

Does anyone have any official multiplier for SSB? It'd surpass SSJ 3 obvs, but still...


Total posts: 130,800
Top