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sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4526: Feb 1st 2014 at 4:47:42 PM

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Grade II and Mastered Super Saiyan are consistently drawn with different auras. Come the Cell Games, after Vegeta explicitly acknowledged Mastered Super Saiyan as being superior to the grade forms, he's (along with Trunks) drawn much less bulky and with a mastered Super Saiyan aura (first pic is Cell Games, second pic is Grade II against Semi-Cell), the same one as Goku. It looks pretty cut and dry to me.

edited 1st Feb '14 4:49:28 PM by sockpuppet1

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4527: Feb 1st 2014 at 4:49:16 PM

But I'm pretty sure he didn't acknowledge that until the Cell Games themselves started.

And I still don't get the auras as the only criterion. That seems kinda dumb to me.

And they still look pretty damn bulky to me.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4528: Feb 1st 2014 at 4:50:43 PM

He didn't. He acknowledged it right after he saw Goku first doing it, which is before he even entered the ROSAT for his second trip. The Cell Games came ten days after that. His surprise at the Cell Games wasn't that Goku mastered Super Saiyan, but that Goku's power was still far beyond his own (previously, he sensed 50% of Goku's power, and thought that was all of it).

Auras aren't the only criterion, they're just further evidence that when Vegeta said that Goku and Gohan were training the right way by mastering Super Saiyan, while he was doing things the wrong way by unlocking grades, he didn't immediately go back and try to do the opposite of what he said he should do like a moron.

edited 1st Feb '14 4:53:21 PM by sockpuppet1

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4529: Feb 1st 2014 at 4:53:28 PM

Vegeta outright realizes what Super Saiyan Full Power is when Goku and Gohan leave the RoSaT - and he explains it to Trunks then and there. Then they enter the RoSaT a second time, come out using only the regular Super Saiyan form and with the Super Saiyan Full Power aura.

Here's a picture of them as regular Super Saiyans. Here's one of Trunks with Super Saiyan Full Power's aura, matching Goku's here.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4530: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:01:07 PM

I thought the point of a fully powered thingy was that it would basically become the base form. Resting state. They can power up more once in it, but it shouldn't have a different aura from the regular, un-"mastered" thingy.

Also, is it just me, or has Toriyama's art style changed in places?

edited 1st Feb '14 5:03:59 PM by unnoun

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4531: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:09:28 PM

1. No.

2. Yes. Contrast Saiyan and Freeza arc Goku.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#4532: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:10:38 PM

The thing about the first Broly movie happening in the ten days before the Cell Games was only stated in the original Japanese dub.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4533: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:12:07 PM

"You're missing the point. It's not about powering up. The point is that they won't have to power up, when they fight. They can use all the energy it would take to transform to increase their stamina and then, only go higher if they need to. Darn, it's so ingenious!"

"What's happened to them? They look like Super Saiyans, but I don't feel the energy... It's like it's their natural state..."

So is the wiki wrong then? Because I can totes sympathize.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4534: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:13:57 PM

The DB wiki tends to quote dubs for their pages, and doesn't differentiate between what was actually in the manga, what was in filler, or what was added by one of the dozens of dubs. So I wouldn't trust it for much of anything.

[up][up] I highly doubt it says that. Not only because of all of the things I mentioned, but because if it DID say that, I'd think that I'd have seen someone bring it up in the many timeline debates I've been in.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4535: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:14:48 PM

...See, that's not a policy of trustworthiness I'm cool with.

All this stuff about dubs and subs and the manga and filler is why I never liked and frankly still can't stand anime fandom.

So I guess I'll stick to the abridged series until I get bored again.

edited 1st Feb '14 5:18:14 PM by unnoun

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4536: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:20:59 PM

The thing is, filler often contradicts both the manga and itself. Same with dubs. So just treating them the same way you treat the manga causes problems and misinformation. Combine that with tons of outright errors and lies, as well as treating video games as canon, and you get the DB wiki.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4537: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:22:23 PM

The word "contradicts" has lots of assumptions in it.

...And I think I'll just leave before I say something I regret.

edited 1st Feb '14 5:23:00 PM by unnoun

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#4538: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:24:09 PM

And yet this Wiki does pretty much the same thing.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4539: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:25:41 PM

For the better, I say.

edited 1st Feb '14 5:39:50 PM by unnoun

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4540: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:27:08 PM

This wiki isn't the DB wiki. Unlike other wikis, I don't think this wiki is meant to be seen as a legitimate source for information. Hence, no citations. Just an example of general tropes (real word). This wiki also has quite an informal tone.

The DB wiki, on the other hand, is supposed to be an online encyclopedia. You generally expect one of those to be well organized and accurate.

[up][up][up] Err, no, contradiction is a pretty straightforward and simple term that applies to the various dubs and filler of DB, as well as some of the other material like video games and magazines. Sometimes, it's extremely obvious, like filler saying that a character is weaker than someone, having them lose to that someone, but then beating another guy stronger than the guy who beat them. Or something being destroyed in one episode and then not being destroyed in the next. Or what we explicitly saw on-screen being overridden.

I'm not even sure what you're trying to say at this point. That the DB wiki is right to treat filler and dubs on the same plane as the original manga, despite saying they don't? Or that it isn't teeming with misinformation and outright lies? Like seriously, what are you trying to say?

edited 1st Feb '14 5:34:32 PM by sockpuppet1

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4541: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:28:17 PM

Like that one time in Budokai Tenkaichi 3 where they said Tien was a Cyclops Alien.

My various fanfics.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4542: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:28:30 PM

Piccolo lost to Nappa, then he matched Second Form Frieza. That's not filler.

The series is run by the creator. Anyone can beat whoever they need to beat for the sake of the plot.

"Lies" is such a harsh word.

edited 1st Feb '14 5:29:41 PM by unnoun

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4543: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:29:17 PM

Yeah, after two big power ups. No contradiction there.

Nope. The creator was rather explicit about who could beat who; if someone needed to beat someone else, they're given a power up. They don't just magically beat someone they shouldn't be able to beat, as often happens in filler, creating plotholes.

"Lies" is a simple word that describes half the DB wiki. For example, the DB wiki said Akira Toriyama wrote GT.

edited 1st Feb '14 5:33:01 PM by sockpuppet1

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4544: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:29:57 PM

And nobody ever got a power up in filler?

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4545: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:30:52 PM

No. In filler, either someone appeared to be magically stronger than they were 2 minutes ago, where they were the exact same, or what is explicitly the same version of the character beats someone they should lose against or vice versa.

There's a lot of filler induced errors. To say nothing of dubs, which shouldn't even factor in.

For example: in the King Piccolo saga, Mutatio isn't strong enough to beat King Piccolo in the back story and dies fighting him. Yet, after Goku DOES beat King Piccolo, he travels back in time to fight Mutatio- the same Mutatio who will die to King Piccolo a year later- and somehow loses.

And the DB wiki uses video games as evidence too to say completely asinine things, sometimes without specifying that the information came from video games.

edited 1st Feb '14 5:35:39 PM by sockpuppet1

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4546: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:36:08 PM

"Inconsistencies" and "errors" don't seem like the same thing to me. Like, that seems really unnecessarily judgmental.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4547: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:37:25 PM

"Error"

Definition: something that is not correct.

Simple.

Okay, now you're just confusing me. What are you trying to say?

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4548: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:39:35 PM

Right. That's not the same thing as an inconsistency. Or, indeed, a "plothole" unquote.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4549: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:40:48 PM

Having Mutatio stronger than King Piccolo is not correct by what is stated and shown in the manga. A spaceship being around in one episode when it was explicitly blown up in the last one makes its presence in that episode an error, not correct. And treating a dub as a source of information on a wiki is just wrong. Especially when their guidelines state to do the opposite of what all the editors actually do.

So, again: what are you trying to say?

edited 1st Feb '14 5:42:40 PM by sockpuppet1

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4550: Feb 1st 2014 at 5:42:30 PM

...Right, I should have given up on this a dozen posts ago.


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