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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#45051: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:17:16 PM

[up][up][up]Even ignoring the arguable point of Gohan being stronger than Cell at that point (which he totally is), Gohan was still stronger than Goku even without SSJ 2. Cell, while not going all-out against Goku, clearly had to put up some amount of effort and Goku damn near killed him with the Instant Kamehameha. He got lucky his regeneration was better than advertised.

Cell should have noticed that Gohan was stronger than Goku when they started fighting, which would be at the point where Gohan would need to stop holding down his power so much.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#45052: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:19:48 PM

[up]I'm not arguing that Gohan isn't stronger than Goku or Cell at that point. I'm saying he didn't demonstrate that he was, because he didn't, not at first.

No one there felt that he was even after he made his little display to get ready. This isn't on Cell being overconfident (which he was, but not in this instance) this is Gohan not displaying enough to make anyone think he has a serious chance at winning.

I'll take the characters actual reactions and thoughts over how you assume they should react.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:22:49 PM by LSBK

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#45053: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:23:06 PM

But here's the thing: He shouldn't need to.

Cell should be able to tell, instantly.

They can feel energy. Cell should've at least taken a peek at Gohan's energy levels when he noticed Goku's confidence no matter what happened in the ring.

By the by, dismissing the my argument by saying "that's how you think they should act" is pointless, because, yes, that is how I think they should've acted, otherwise, I would not be arguing that this is the way they should've acted, don't you think? If they've got the ability to feel ki, then they should damn well use it.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:25:14 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#45054: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:27:14 PM

Cell did notice Gohan's energy, he comments on it before they start to fight, it just isn't at a level of "Wow, he's totally stronger than Goku and someone I need to take seriously".

And I dismissed it as "That's how you think the should act" because your reasoning is flawed, and I've been pointing out why. You not liking it doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

By your logic nobody should be surprised by Goku's decision to step down and let Gohan fight, or they should all immediately understand why. But they don't, because Gohan still isn't showing how strong he really is.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:29:56 PM by LSBK

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#45055: Oct 18th 2016 at 8:29:45 PM

Yeah, and then he doesn't notice that it doesn't decrease when Gohan gets beat up, which should be logically happening.

If Cell is fighting Gohan, then he should be aware of Gohan, at least peripherally if he doesn't really think that he is a threat. Especially because he knows that Gohan is still holding back.

It does not matter how much the peanut gallery protests Goku's decision, because there are legitimate reasons as to why they wouldn't be paying super close attention to Gohan at that point in time. Namely, Cell being right there next to him.

But there's no justification as to why Cell wasn't paying enough attention to not notice that he wasn't doing anywhere near as much damage as he should. He should have gotten something of an idea of how strong Gohan actually was from that. He probably even did but thought he could still take Gohan anyway. Hell, he came back immediately after getting a taste of how insanely strong SSJ 2 Gohan was - that time he should've been able to tell he was fucked against SSJ 2 Gohan even with the powerup he got.

Also I think I messed up that double negative somewhere.

edited 18th Oct '16 8:39:56 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#45056: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:03:39 PM

I think your argument should've been...that they can sense the max power of a character.

Unless a character makes an effort to lower their power to near nonexistent, there's no reason another character shouldn't be able to sense what they're really capable of.

This was suppose to be the reason ki sensing was better than scouters.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#45058: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:25:38 PM

Well that's very endearing news.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#45059: Oct 18th 2016 at 9:29:49 PM

But do the servers actually work?

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#45061: Oct 18th 2016 at 10:11:20 PM

Broly has officially obtained every single Super Saiyan Transformation, once again.

Legendary Super Saiyan Rose.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#45062: Oct 18th 2016 at 10:14:42 PM

Has he obtained God or Blue though?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#45063: Oct 18th 2016 at 10:15:12 PM

Karoly Black's hair looks like a dragonfruit

edited 18th Oct '16 10:15:29 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#45064: Oct 18th 2016 at 10:25:07 PM

[up][up][up] We live in a world where Legendary Super Saiyan Rose Karoly Black exists.

Think about that...

edited 18th Oct '16 10:25:27 PM by Rinsankajugin

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#45065: Oct 19th 2016 at 12:47:38 AM

I want to point out that Cell actually used his "true speed" against Gohan when he outsped him, he didn't do that for Goku. To say he used less effort is just wrong.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#45066: Oct 19th 2016 at 1:27:39 AM

SS1 Gohan was marginally stronger than Goku, but still substantially weaker than Cell, until he went Super Saiyan 2. This is what is presented in the story. The alternate interpretation this conversation is about requires knowledge of future events combined with information from a less than reputable source and some unnecessary mental gymnastics to come to such a warped and overly complicated conclusion about an otherwise straightforward end to an arc.

edited 19th Oct '16 2:05:09 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#45067: Oct 19th 2016 at 1:39:53 AM

That's a really unfair way to describe the possibility of anyone having a different interpretation to your very narrow one.

For one thing, there are many things to indicate that Gohan's lead on Goku was pretty damn large. For another, Cell used multiple stages of power the entire time which makes things vaguer.

Bolded1 Fate, guide me from behind you!!!!!!!! Since: Mar, 2015
Fate, guide me
#45068: Oct 19th 2016 at 1:54:55 AM

Black Karoly's hair makes me crave for ice-cream, seriously.

Nautolan picture belongs to Bonesmarinated on twitter
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#45069: Oct 19th 2016 at 2:00:28 AM

[up][up]I'm not describing any other possible interpretation. I'm describing one very specific alternate interpretation. Other interpretations can also be equally valid, but this one in particular requires too much mental gymnastics and alternative interpreting for me to accept this specific one as valid.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#45070: Oct 19th 2016 at 3:24:53 AM

SS 1 Gohan was marginally stronger than Goku, but still substantially weaker than Cell, until he went Super Saiyan 2.

When Goku asks Gohan if they were too fast for him to follow, Gohan remarks that he thought they were holding back. This implies that the difference is large enough for Gohan to think that Goku was screwing around even though Goku was going all out.

Furthermore, now that I'm not sleepy and can look for the pages, I went back to the manga itself and, yeah, everyone's pretty damn shocked at Gohan's power. Even Cell has a shocked reaction to Gohan's power. Furthermore, he decides he can take Gohan even though he also acknowledges that Gohan is holding back a lot (that's why he's excited to unleash Gohan).

This is what is presented in the story.

Arguable.

The alternate interpretation this conversation is about requires knowledge of future events combined with information from a less than reputable source and some unnecessary mental gymnastics to come to such a warped and overly complicated conclusion about an otherwise straightforward end to an arc.

"Any interpretation other than mine requires information from a less than reputable source and some unnecessary mental gymnastics and is warped and overly complicated!"

Yeah, no. Furthermore, "requires knowledge of future events"... What.

Are you saying that just because they happened after, it means that they don't count to this argument? That is ridiculous.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#45071: Oct 19th 2016 at 6:27:53 AM

Karoly Black actually works.

And Future Trunks fusing with Kid Trunks, would that make EX Trunks younger?

And i'm glad Hit is not DLC, though it makes me wonder why Kyabe and Frost are and what their DLC missions will be.

edited 19th Oct '16 6:29:51 AM by Cortez

LLSmoothJ (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#45072: Oct 19th 2016 at 7:05:16 AM

I'm surprised we haven't gotten Baby Vegito Black yet.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#45073: Oct 19th 2016 at 7:11:34 AM

Can't really say for sure if Cell was already stronger than Gohan before SSJ 2 since the fight didn't really start until after he transformed.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#45075: Oct 19th 2016 at 8:09:20 AM

Has he obtained God or Blue though?

I mean by association since he has Rose, I assume that's basically Super Saiyan God/Blue, or that he is capable of obtaining them. Though there isn't an actual Legendary Super Saiyan Blue... yet. Give it time. Vegeta obtained the form by working out, Broly can probably obtain it by screaming really loudly.

...I wonder if this confirms that Super Saiyan God/godly ki is an additive status effect, rather than a power multiplier. Godly ki doesn't shoot your power level to absurd levels, it just enhances your attacks/transformations so that you can take punishment from godly beings as well as dish it out.

Reason being that Zamasu couldn't have gained that much strength just from fighting/stalemating Trunks and having a single fight with Goku, unless his Zenkai really is overpowered - because Black was only, as far as we know, rivaling a Super Saiyan 2, and that was the last fight we saw, so his power skyrocketed from Super Saiyan 2 to Super Saiyan Blue (and that's pretty absurd).

So apparently him having a Super Saiyan transformation plus Saiyan biology plus godly ki just automatically shoots him to Super Saiyan Blue/Beerus levels?

Or: Super Saiyan God/Blue/Rose just make you able to hurt beings like Beerus. SSG was just Goku's base form plus anti-Beerus magic. Super Saiyan Blue was just Super Saiyan with anti-Beerus magic. Super Saiyan Rose is just Super Saiyan with anti-Beerus magic, and Black is just a much stronger Super Saiyan than either Goku, Vegeta, or Trunks.

That could even reinforce the name choice- it's not "Super Saiyan 4 and 5," even though they easily could've been, it's God and Blue. It's an offshoot of the original transformation, an alternative. It's not something that continues the previous line of transformations, it's something that enhances the original forms, and not by giving Goku additional muscle mass either like all the previous forms do either.

edited 19th Oct '16 8:15:45 AM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

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