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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#44976: Oct 15th 2016 at 10:54:56 PM

@Saiga

I checked and what I thought were burn marks on his hand were just dots drawn around it, so yeah, you're right.

For the record, I disagree on them being all the same.

Even if you say that the distinction becomes meaningless as the characters become able to manipulate their ki to do whatever they want without a specialized technique, it doesn't mean that the attacks are all the same at all. It just means that ki is a versatile energy that, when mastered, can be used to do a variety of things.

It just means that the characters are so good at controlling their ki that they no longer need to use specific techniques to get it to do what they want.

It's like going from using specific tools to do a job to doing it with whatever you have on hand. It's not that the tools themselves are all the same, it's just that you find new ways to do the same thing, resulting in you being able to do the same job with a variety of different tools.

Some less efficient than others, obviously.

@hardcorefakes

... Do you actually know what a strawman argument is?

Because you're giving me the impression that you think that the only thing Goku has is the Kamehameha by being insistent on that point. Even if he were to face an opponent that is completely invulnerable to ki beams, Goku would still beat the everloving crap out of it, and that's the point I'm making against your assumption that Vegeta learning how to immunize himself against the Kamehameha would somehow give him an edge over Goku.

edited 15th Oct '16 11:01:58 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#44977: Oct 15th 2016 at 10:57:46 PM

Wait, could Goku actually sense ki that early? How was he able to tell how intense it was if he couldn't sense it any other way than through sight?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#44978: Oct 15th 2016 at 10:58:57 PM

[up][up]No, do you know what a straw man is?

Because you're quite fond of throwing that term around, but I don't think it means what you think it means.

Your impressions of me, and reality are two different things.

I only brought up the Kamehameha because people were mentioning that Tien could nullify it, and I posited that Vegeta should learn it. Then you went on this wild tangent that had nothing to do with what I said.

Also, when did I say it would give him an edge over Goku? My point was that it would be beneficial for Vegeta, not that it's a be-all and end-all solution for him to defeat Goku.

Of course Goku has other techniques at his disposal (and I never implied he didn't).

edited 15th Oct '16 11:03:46 PM by hardcorefakes

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44979: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:05:50 PM

[up][up] It's possible that he could do so even earlier. Are you in the Abridged thread? We recently talked about when ki sensing showed up there. Goku first showed some sort of ability to detect people back in the Pilaf arc, when they entered the village that Oolong terrorized and he could sense the "presence" of people. Ki hadn't been introduced as a concept yet, so neither had ki sensing, but it's possible that is the same thing.

With that example, though, that exchange happens immediately after Kuririn notes that Tenshinhan's hands are glowing. The way Kuririn says it left me with the impression that he couldn't sense ki, and Roshi knowing the technique explained what was happening. So Goku taking notice of the power after it is already visible could go either way for him having ki sensing or not.

It seems very similar to the scene in Naruto's Land of Waves arc where Kakashi's chakra being visible in his hand is a sign of how powerful his technique is.

[up][up][up] Yes, but unlike the Kienzan or Mankankosappo, we see literally nothing about the Galick Gun or Masenko to believe they have a different use to the Kamehameha. None of the properties appear to be different. Hell, Goku even introduces the Super Kamehameha which has a much bigger form and doesn't appear to be any more effective, nor does he appear to continue using it going forward. Seems like he can just do everything with the regular old Kamehameha.

Hell, as seen in the Freeza fight, he can make spherical attacks with the Kamehameha, as well as delayed, remotely fired balls. Really does seem like there is no need for specific techniques anymore when they can be modified to that extent.

And that's what most ki attacks seem to be.

edited 15th Oct '16 11:09:47 PM by Saiga

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#44980: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:09:56 PM

Reading the manga again brings back so many memories. Kid Goku is still funny, Piccolo is still funny. Trunks it still badass. It's no wonder this thing became a hit. Thanks to the TOEI anime an youtube when I think Dragon Ball I normally think "9000!" But arguing on TV Tropes forces me to acknowledge it is of slightly higher standard than what one expects from goofy gag comics where people hit each other.

Buldogue's lawyer
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#44981: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:14:57 PM

It's where you say that it's his 'go to' move.

And this:

Maybe Vegeta should try to learn that technique, for another potential battle between him and Goku.

Is where you imply it would give Vegeta an advantage over Goku. Saying that he should learn it for another potential battle between him and Goku implies that it would be advantageous for him to know it.

And that's the thing. It's not really. Because the Kamehameha is just a technique Goku knows and not his number 1 problem solver.

It's not his go-to move. It's not his trump card. In fact, Goku has actually never defeated a major opponent with a Kamehameha, if you think about it.

Piccolo? Punched through.

Piccolo Jr.? Headbutt. I can just hear Lani shouting MUUUUURSTAKE.

Radditz? Piccolo did it.

Vegeta? Team effort, Gohan crushing him did it.

Freeza? Random ass ki blast.

Cell? He lost and then died.

Buu? Genki Dama.

Beerus? He lost that one.

Hit? Not the Kamehameha that did it, but the Kaioken.

It's funny, really. The Kamehameha is a strong move, yes, but not having it will not significantly hamper Goku. Vegeta learning how to be immune to it is meaningless, which was the point from the start, and the point I'm trying to prove.

By the by and FYI, a strawman is when you reply to something the other poster did not actually say. And as you can see from where I quoted you, you did imply that Vegeta learning how to become invulnerable to the Kamehameha would give him an advantage.

@Saiga

I'm fairly sure the Galick Gun and the Masenko are very similar, since they both are destructive beams that do not seem to have any other property.

But there's plenty of ki-based (and presumably ki based) techniques that don't just shoot a beam that explodes.

I'm not saying every move is completely unique. Of course they're not. But just saying "oh most are all the same" is like saying "every tool is a hammer". I mean, yeah, you can use almost anything as a hammer, but that doesn't mean it is a hammer.

edited 15th Oct '16 11:19:58 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#44982: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:18:21 PM

So was there actually ever a visual difference between the Kamehameha and the Super Kamehameha?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44983: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:20:04 PM

Goku has like two big Ki attacks, and one of them is the Kamehameha. If Vegeta somehow found a way to become immune to all attacks that have the name Kamehameha, it would be a slight advantage over Goku. Not much of one, and Goku would adapt, but it would restrict Goku a bit, as long as he doesn't just decide to turn the Kamehameha purple and start yelling Galick Gun to get around it.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#44984: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:25:45 PM

A fight between Goku and Vegeta would be almost entirely melee and unnamed random blasts. It would be basically meaningless.

It'd be like going into a gunfight and preparing yourself by making yourself immune to knife-based weaponry. In the right situation, it'd be useful, but short of the other guy having tapped a knife to his rifle to use as a bayonet, it's not gonna be very useful in your current predicament.

Also, even if you disagree that Tien's Z soul can block any Kamehameha no matter the power... really, given the sheer mastery of Ki that Goku has, it's probably 99.99% likely he'd figure out how to make the second Kamehameha hit home after the first is negated.

edited 15th Oct '16 11:27:01 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44985: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:31:09 PM

[up][up][up]The beam is thicker and looks more manly.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44986: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:31:56 PM

[up][up][up][up] Super Kamehameha in the manga has a much larger blast size.

Video games used the Super Kamehameha name for a lot of visually different attacks, some of which are bigger Kamehamehas and some of which are stronger but look the exact same.

edit: IANCE - I have to disagree with you. Like I said, the generic ki attacks heavily outweigh the ones that appear to have special properties. So saying "most are the same" would be totally valid.

edited 15th Oct '16 11:33:02 PM by Saiga

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#44987: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:32:03 PM

@IANCE

1. No....just no. It would be advantageous for Vegeta, yes, but you assuming that I meant it's a clear cut "advantage" over Goku is a fabrication that you're arguing against. What, the very fact that I mentioned it is the implication itself? No.

2. ...It is his go-to move, ie, when he uses his ki, you can bet on it being the Kamehameha.

3. The fact that he's never defeated an enemy with it is not a point against the above point. I'm not arguing for how he defeated his foes....I said the Kamehameha is his go-to move. ...Which it is, regardless of how he defeats his foes.

4. Nope, it's not meaningless, as you have essentially taken away a major technique for Goku. I don't know why you're trying to downplay that.

5. No, you're still using a straw man here. You are essentially arguing against a fabricated implication that you've decided that I must have made, despite me saying saying how abjectly false you are. You can keep saying it, but it won't be true.

Again, I do mean it would be beneficial for Vegeta, but you going on about me implying it would be an advantage over Goku? That's simply not true.

edited 15th Oct '16 11:51:36 PM by hardcorefakes

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44988: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:34:50 PM

It wouldn't be that beneficial...Karrot only uses the Kamehameha once per fight.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#44989: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:35:20 PM

So, what y'all are saying is that if I kicked someone in the knee while screaming, it'd be the same as shooting a Kamehameha at an active volcano?

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#44990: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:36:40 PM

@Saiga In that image, was the giant orb the actual blast, or was that the orb at the hands the beam comes out of?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44991: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:37:52 PM

It was the blast, you can see the beam leading into it in that image...

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#44992: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:38:42 PM

There are times where he uses it more than once.

I'm not saying it's some massive advantage, I just mentioned having a nullifying technique against Goku would be useful for Vegeta.

Any possible gains for Vegeta would be useful, no matter how small. If Goku could nullify Final Flash, or Galick Gun, that would be useful for Goku (even more for Goku really, as he has Kaio-ken).

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#44993: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:39:49 PM

@Saiga

Generic ki attacks are generic, dood. It's like calling every punch a technique.

Generic ki blasts are probably all the same, but named techniques tend to have at least something that makes them different. Mostly because otherwise, the existence of new techniques would've been pointless.

I can agree with saying that most ki blasts are the same, but that's because most ki blasts fired are generic ki blasts.

And of course, I also agree with the idea that in late game, different techniques become completely meaningless because the characters can just get their ki to do whatever they want it to do, and the difference between techniques becomes mostly cosmetic. Especially regarding Goku, who's been able to make the Kamehameha do weird stuff for a long time.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#44994: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:45:23 PM

Which is the opposite of Vegeta, who's only ever been able to make bigger and better ki blast/beams with his moves, barring that weird ring thing he once did to restrain Goku to a wall and that fire ball thing from their first fight. Goku on the other hand has made the Kamehameha continuous, rapid-fire, controllable, able to be fired from his feet, able to propel him with the force, and twin remote-delayed orbs.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44995: Oct 15th 2016 at 11:59:04 PM

[up][up] But in the manga, there is little to no distinction between named techniques like Masenko and the blast Trunks kills Cell with. As an example. The only difference appears to be Gohan using the name. For all we know, those techniques could have names that aren't used, it wouldn't make a difference anyway.

@Gojira In that picture, it's the ball that the blast comes out of. Ki beams in Dragon Ball tend to be a ball at the end that is being fired from, a stream, and a ball from the end travelling toward the target. They're usually the same size, the Super Kamehameha is like that as well.

So visually it's just a big Kamehameha.

[up] Vegeta's also used a visually identical move to the Kienzan, and he came into the series where characters didn't use different kinds of ki attacks very often so it's likely just because of a shift in the series than anything to do with his particular fighting style.

edited 16th Oct '16 12:00:18 AM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#44996: Oct 16th 2016 at 12:00:41 AM

So to clarify, that giant orb is where the blast is coming from in the picture?

[up] Actually, what was that fire move Vegeta used on Goku? Since when has anyone shown elemental powers in this series?

edited 16th Oct '16 12:01:34 AM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44997: Oct 16th 2016 at 12:01:19 AM

Yep!

Chapter 185, if you want to look at it online and see how the beam looks in the next few pages. It's also used again in 191.

edited 16th Oct '16 12:04:52 AM by Saiga

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#44998: Oct 16th 2016 at 12:02:39 AM

If that's true, then wouldn't the Kamehameha Goku used on Beerus in Battle of Gods be the Super version, since the orb it came from was massive?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#44999: Oct 16th 2016 at 12:11:06 AM

The distinction between the Super Kamehameha and the Normal Kamehameha kind of became meaningless when Goku became able to use a stronger Kamehameha without increasing its size or even the amount of real estate it blows up, only how difficult it is to block.

@Saiga

Some techniques are just straightforward ki blasts, yeah, but others are not, and I feel like saying "most ki blasts are all the same" ignores that.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#45000: Oct 16th 2016 at 12:19:11 AM

[up][up] ehhh I wouldn't read much into it, since Toei aren't that consistent and the Super Kamehameha is never acknowledged after that point again.

If there is an upgrade to the Kamehameha, it's probably the Kamehameha Full Power, which has another distinct appearance - the "orb" is actually wrapped around the user, like an aura.

But it's never been officially described as a separate technique (I got the name for it from the chapter titled "Kamehameha Full Power" which is where Goku first uses it - the Kamehameha is never drawn that way before Cell and Goku's fight)

It could just be an evolution of Toriyama's art, though, to start portraying the Kamehameha that way. But earlier in the fight Goku uses a Kamehameha without it wrapping himself in its aura, so it does look like the technique is different at full power.

Of course, this new appearance for the Kamehameha was never used in the anime.

[up] I don't think it does, when we were specifically talking about Future Trunks using the Galick Gun in Super. [up]


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