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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44851: Oct 12th 2016 at 3:54:10 PM

I'd image the issue is more with shipping a man in his twenties with preteens than the actual numerical age difference.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#44852: Oct 12th 2016 at 4:14:57 PM

[up][up] Right now? My dad's sixty-something and my mom's fifty-something, I think. When they married, she was 18 and he was 29.

[up] That'd be understandable but the objection being an age gap never made sense to me provided it was only around ten or so years. Unless one of the parties is an immortal or otherwise incredibly long-lived being.

edited 12th Oct '16 4:16:33 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#44854: Oct 12th 2016 at 5:02:53 PM

So, after watching the last couple of episodes, I'm a bit disappointed that Black turned out to not be the God of Destruction from U10. The actual answer makes sense, though, and actually improves the villain (character-wise), so that's good. It doesn't gel that well with his last appearance (where Future Zamasu seemed to be the mastermind, and leader of the duo), but that disparity is ambiguous enough to overlook.

My problem is the time-travel plot-hole, though: There's no way it happened, a timeline where Zamasu succeeded in killing Gowasu. He attempted to do so because he met our Goku, and the regular course of events from there leads to Beerus killing him. There was absolutely no instance where a timeline split could've happened. Not even Whis' rewind power works as an explanation, since that theory has holes of its own (if the rewind erased Goku from existence, how did the body switch happen?)

The time travel elements have been complicated, but somewhat consistent, so it's a shame to see such a walking paradox.

Still, I have two possible explanations: 1. Beerus killing Zamasu did create a split somehow, and Whis/Beerus will explain it properly at the end of the arc; 2. Zamasu used the time rings before attempting to kill Gowasu, somehow causing this split. Yeah, I'm still hoping there's an actual explanation.

Now, a possibly bigger question: where the heck is Zeno (the entire upper divine hierarchy, really) during Zamasu's "Zero Humans" plan? They killed every Kaioshin in the multiverse, they're just going to let that slide?

Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
#44855: Oct 12th 2016 at 5:10:03 PM

[up]Black is a walking paradox that's the thing. He has the Ring so he was not erased when Beerus killed his past self. The best explanation I can see is that after Zamasu killed Gowasu when Beerus let it happen to prove his guilt. When Zamasu got the time ring and position of Supurme Kai in order to use it. The rewind did not apply to him so he was able to travel a year into the future with no issues.

It's not a plot hole it's a paradox. Black should no longer exist but does due to the time ring.

edited 12th Oct '16 5:11:06 PM by Envyus

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44856: Oct 12th 2016 at 5:55:50 PM

So, after watching the last couple of episodes, I'm a bit disappointed that Black turned out to not be the God of Destruction from U10.

And I wanted Black to be an evil half of Zamasu with Future Zamasu being the corrupted good half. We all have to live with disappointment!

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44857: Oct 12th 2016 at 6:25:00 PM

Far as I can tell, Black needed to exist in order for Beerus to be in a position to kill Zamasu. Beerus killing Zamasu doesn't erase Black because he's wearing a Time Ring, which removes him from causality. Black is the source of these events, not Beerus. Now he's literally a walking time paradox.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#44858: Oct 12th 2016 at 11:38:38 PM

As to why Beerus didn't kill Zamasu before he turned into Black in the first place, he did.

It didn't. Godly time travel, in contrast to the Time Machine, explicitly changes the past. By reversing time, stopping Zamasu from killing Gowasu and then killing him, they prevented Black's personal timeline. Or you could even say Black prevented his own personal timeline by allowing the heroes to be aware of it.

That's why everyone besides Trunks assumes that Beerus killing Zamasu should've ended things, including Beerus and Whis themselves who are the most knowledgeable about such things, and why the only reason Black is still around is because of the Rings. He's not supposed to be around any more, because his past no longer exists. He's basically cheating death/oblivion.

edited 12th Oct '16 11:39:55 PM by KnownUnknown

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#44859: Oct 13th 2016 at 2:24:38 AM

I forgot about Whis's time-reversal. That makes a lot more sense now.

I was wondering why everyone was like "See? Everything is going to be OK now!" when they all knew Multiverse Theory exists.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#44860: Oct 13th 2016 at 4:18:41 AM

It's not a plot hole it's a paradox. Black should no longer exist but does due to the time ring.

My issue is not with Black cheating causality, I get that part. My issue is that there's no timeline where Zamasu killed Gowasu and Beerus wasn't watching.

Black appearing caused Beerus&Whis to be suspicious of Zamasu (that guy from U10 with a similar ki), then for Goku to meet and fight Zamasu, and then for Zamasu to plot Gowasu's murder. Goku met Zamasu because Beerus&Whis were suspicious of him, which means Zamasu killed Gowasu because Beerus&Whis were suspicious of him. Zamasu's failure was preordained, doomed from the moment he started plotting (so, Black simultaneously caused and prevented his own existence)

And yet there's a personal timeline where he got away with it. Not just that, but one year later in that timeline, Goku is living happily with his family.

The rewind did not apply to him so he was able to travel a year into the future with no issues

I considered that, too. But how does that work from Goku's perspective? The one who got his body stolen, I mean.

  • Step 1: I met an evil twin called Black, that was weird. Let's meet this guy Zamasu and challenge him to a fight, see what we learn;
  • Step 2: ???
  • Step 3: One year later, everything's fine. Goten's healthy, the crops are- wait, why did I turn into Zamasu?

There has to be a Step 2 in the chain of events. And the only explanation I can think of, is that "Step 2" is the events we're watching right now in the series.

To elaborate, if Zamasu put on the time ring immediately after (or during) offing Gowasu, it's possible he escaped Whis' rewind and became a paradox. And if he used it to jump one year into the future, that means he's about to pop up into existence one year from the current events, just to snatch Goku's body (and then fuck off into Trunks' timeline).

...Which is a scary thought.

edited 13th Oct '16 4:21:01 AM by JonnasN

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#44861: Oct 13th 2016 at 4:40:38 AM

There was a theory that when they went back to the future to face Black and Zamasu for the first time, it split the timeline again. And in the new timeline, Zamasu was able to kill Gowasu without Beerus and Whis's intervention. After all, they only arrive to witness it due to their warning from the future.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#44863: Oct 13th 2016 at 8:16:30 AM

Like I said, they've been pretty silent about stuff post-Frieza. The remaining new characters must be involved in the plot beyond there.

Maybe non-Majin Dabura and his and Towa's grandfather?

LLSmoothJ (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#44864: Oct 13th 2016 at 8:28:34 AM

I can totally see them adapt Bojack Unbound by adding Android 13.

Hey, maybe Dabura will be in the game after all.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#44865: Oct 13th 2016 at 9:15:06 AM

My issue is not with Black cheating causality, I get that part. My issue is that there's no timeline where Zamasu killed Gowasu and Beerus wasn't watching.

No timeline that we see. Everything that happens in the Future Trunks arc happens because time travel made it that way - we are explicitly witnessing altered events from the moment Trunks arrives and Black follows him.

The original course of events had to be very different to explain all this, but it's also likely we'll never know how it went. We can only make theories, like yours about Zamasu grabbing the time ring in the original course or mine about the fight between Goku and Zamasu originally being friendly in the original course and nobody realizing how badly he reacted to losing.

Same for the unseen timeline in the Android/Cell Saga (the one that the Trunks from Cell's timeline was going to return to).

edited 13th Oct '16 9:18:24 AM by KnownUnknown

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44866: Oct 13th 2016 at 9:45:55 AM

The chain of events starts with Black appearing and being a threat to Trunks. There is no timeline where Beerus didn't kill Zamasu, because Present Zamasu and Black are the same temporal entity. Beerus doesn't kill Zamasu unless Black is a threat to warrant Beerus killing Zamasu.

1. Black threatens Trunks' future.

2. Goku and Beerus investigate Zamasu.

3. Beerus kills Zamasu, supposedly erasing Black's existence.

4. Black is wearing a Time Ring, removing him from causality.

For all intents and purposes, anything before step 1 never happened, except in Black's memories.

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#44867: Oct 13th 2016 at 10:37:07 AM

[...]we are explicitly witnessing altered events from the moment Trunks arrives and Black follows him.

The original course of events had to be very different to explain all this, but it's also likely we'll never know how it went. We can only make theories, like [...] mine about the fight between Goku and Zamasu originally being friendly in the original course and nobody realizing how badly he reacted to losing.

That explanation (and your theory) makes the most sense. Not only does it give a home timeline for Black, but it's consistent with how both brands of time travel (divine and Bulma-made) work.

(Also, if my logic is correct, this makes 5 timelines in total, to go with Gowasu's 5 rings)

Thinking about it, if Trunks didn't show up, Goku would've been called by Zeno, and he would've had free time to play. Maybe that would lead to the Goku/Zamasu encounter that Black remembers.

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#44868: Oct 13th 2016 at 11:42:40 AM

The chain of events starts with Black appearing and being a threat to Trunks. There is no timeline where Beerus didn't kill Zamasu, because Present Zamasu and Black are the same temporal entity. Beerus doesn't kill Zamasu unless Black is a threat to warrant Beerus killing Zamasu

You're assuming a stable time loop, but both of the forms of time travel we see in the series are explicitly unstable. And it can't be stable, because going forward there's no actual event that causes Black to exist, and going backward Black remembers events that didn't actually happen.

Beerus kills Xanadu because Black has become a threat big enough to warrant his death. This doesn't mean that Zamasu was always killed by Beerus, it means that Black accidentally erased himself from existence, Marty McFly style.

edited 13th Oct '16 11:45:06 AM by KnownUnknown

Tomodachi Now a lurker. See you at the forums. Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Now a lurker. See you at the forums.
#44869: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:10:22 PM

[up] In other words: Time Ring = Logic Screwer

Hm, movie villains. I'm a fan of a few, but there are others who are so flat they never impressed me.

I like Turles, Cooler, and Broly. I don't like, however, Slug, Android 13 and Bojack. These last three were pretty boring for me.

Or maybe I have a bias. I don't know. I hope Xenoverse makes me like 13 and Bojack, because abridged King Piccolo is the only Slug I like :P

[down] Could be, at this point I don't think it matters that much what happened exactly in the original timeline.

edited 13th Oct '16 12:15:53 PM by Tomodachi

To win, you need to adapt, and to adapt, you need to be able to laugh away all the restraints. Everything holding you back.
Mega_zxa Since: Mar, 2015
#44870: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:11:24 PM

So I have to wonder? Why does everyone keep forgetting about the Omniverse Tournament. Zamasu could have easily met Goku there, and then the sparring match could have happened from Gowasu seeing how powerful and skilled Goku is in the tournament deciding that facing off against Goku would help Zamasu grow and mature and then things predictably go wrong with Zamasu going crazy and becoming Black and causing all this chaos.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44871: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:32:17 PM

Because it hasn't come up once.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44872: Oct 13th 2016 at 12:32:19 PM

[up][up][up]You like 2 clones and one original....

You don't like 2 clones and one original...

How interest.

edited 13th Oct '16 12:32:32 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#44873: Oct 13th 2016 at 1:41:39 PM

@Known Unknown

Did your keyboard autocorrect Zamasu into Xanadu?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
LLSmoothJ (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#44875: Oct 13th 2016 at 6:56:43 PM

First DLC Pack for Xenoverse 2 has been revealed: Final Form Frost and SSJ Cabba.


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