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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44176: Sep 28th 2016 at 10:42:46 AM

Goku isn't that much stronger than Piccolo though.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44177: Sep 28th 2016 at 10:44:47 AM
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44178: Sep 28th 2016 at 10:51:21 AM

It's not a comeback, it's just an honest reaction. You're actual reasoning "Piccolo is somewhere between base and Super Saiyan 1 Goku, and so isn't that much weaker than him" is pretty funny.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44179: Sep 28th 2016 at 10:56:16 AM

The only levels of Super Saiyan used in the tournament were 1 and Blue, and Blue wasn't relevant until Hit. The only forms I'm comparing Piccolo to are 1 and base, because those are the only forms that are relevant to the conversation regarding Goku, Frost, and Piccolo. Of course Piccolo is literally nothing compared to Super Saiyan 3 or Blue, and he's figuratively nothing compared to 2, but we're not talking about 2, 3, or Blue. We're talking about 1, which he is actually somewhere near the same league of.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#44180: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:02:30 AM

So you're just going to ignore the fact that Goku is way stronger in his base form and absolutely demolished Frost as a Super Saiyan?

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#44181: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:05:53 AM

Really, it would have been better if Picollo just went first, beat Botamo, lost to Frost and after that the rest of the tournament can go on as it did.

Ok. That works perfectly.

They can even still do the thing with Vegeta by having him discover Frost is a cheater during the match (or at least suspecting it then flattening him afterwards).

Or whatever. Just use the people you have. Don't tell us it's 5 v 5 fight, then take out two people and make the third mostly irrelevant.

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#44182: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:06:33 AM

Piccolo is weaker than Mr Boo and at best somewhere around base Gohan. Goku isn't just way stronger than those two, he's leagues above Super Sayian Gohan.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44183: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:07:40 AM

Goku still easily demolished Frost as a Super Saiyan 1, something Piccolo couldn't do. Saying he's even close to Goku's strength in that state makes no sense.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44184: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:07:48 AM

Goku is not stronger than Piccolo in base. Assault form Frost was marginally stronger than base Goku, Final Form Frost is a huge increase over Assault Form. Yeah, Final Form Frost is significantly weaker than SS1 Goku, and Piccolo, in turn, is significantly weaker than Final Form Frost, but that's not enough to more than cross the humongous 50x gap of power between base Goku and SS1 Goku.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#44185: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:10:20 AM

[up][up][up]Who cares?

He'll get his fight. He did get a good fight.

I'm saying if Toriyama really wants to do something unexpected, then actually letting others fight (in a no stakes tournament at that) would have been good.

At the least, he could have actually used Buu instead of throwing him out from the start.

Edit: And now I realize you are responding to Pushover. My bad. Not my argument really.

edited 28th Sep '16 11:11:11 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#44186: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:14:19 AM

See, this really only applies to the anime version though; the manga never had Goku retain the power of Super Saiyan God, so he's most likely only at a god's level of power when using the God forms; otherwise he's only slightly above what he was at during the Buu Saga, and Piccolo is stronger than every Saiyan in their base state.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#44187: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:22:20 AM

Yeah, manga really misses the point. Goku retaining the god powers afterwards was kind of big thing even in the movie. But manga likes to act like he was only little bit stronger than in Boo saga even after training with Whis.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#44188: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:24:12 AM

I find the manga a better read because it did that, honestly. It's a big reason I decided to drop the Super anime for the manga.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#44189: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:27:10 AM

See, this really only applies to the anime version though; the manga never had Goku retain the power of Super Saiyan God

...really now? But he uses Super Saiyan God in the tournament.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44190: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:27:43 AM

Trust me on this: I know Power Levels. Let's say that base Goku is a 1, for simplicity's sake, which would make SS1 Goku a 50. Even if we're going with an extremely generous 50% strength advantage for both Goku over Frost and Frost over Piccolo, that puts Final Form Frost at about 33, and Piccolo at 22. That's still more than 20 times Goku's base strength.

EDIT: welp, I guess the conversation swerved into something completely different.

edited 28th Sep '16 11:29:12 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#44191: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:29:47 AM

I don't like the manga but for unrelated reasons. The pacing is just awful and it really just feels like an cliffsnotes version of events... but somehow still find the time on setting up things that go nowhere, like making Vados and Champa looks shady as hell.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44192: Sep 28th 2016 at 11:32:39 AM

I feel that the manga improves on some aspects, but the anime overall does a better job. It's still worth a read, just to get an alternate version of the same events and story.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#44193: Sep 28th 2016 at 12:33:39 PM

Well, there was never a point in the manga version's fight with Beerus where we see Goku exit out of God but still retain its power, instead we have him using up all of his God form's power blowing up Beerus' Sphere of Destruction to prevent it from destroying Earth, with the aftermath leaving Goku in the same tired state he was in during the movie. The manga also had Beerus explain the 12 universes and Whis' true power to Goku, which the anime skipped because Goku had passed out by that point. At best, Goku just learned how to become a Super Saiyan God on his own, with Super Saiyan Blue being more powerful than it; Super Kaio-ken is removed, but the anime already did that seeing as how Goku isn't allowed to use the damn thing anymore because of that Delayed Onset Ki Disorder that comes from doing it, with King Kai even stating that the disorder can become permanent if Goku continues to be reckless with it.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#44194: Sep 28th 2016 at 1:13:14 PM

As I understood it, the real problem with Super Kaio-ken was that Goku hadn't perfected it yet and the technique wasn't really ready to be used when he deployed it against Hit. My impression was that the ki disorder thing wouldn't happen once he learned how to properly control it.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#44195: Sep 28th 2016 at 3:09:22 PM

Goku's base form is way ahead of Piccolo.

Piccolo got killed by a single Death Beam by first form Frieza while sitting in his easy chair. Goku's base form was stronger true form Frieza who only got hits in because he targeted Goku's friends. Frost's third form actually hit base form Goku without cheating.

Super Saiyan Goku from the Champa Saga isn't Super Saiyan Goku from Namek, Cell, or the Buu Saga.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44196: Sep 28th 2016 at 3:11:30 PM

Are you forgetting him training with Gohan in-between Freeza and the tournament?

edited 28th Sep '16 3:12:25 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#44197: Sep 28th 2016 at 3:12:18 PM

See, that's probably the reason why the Frieza fight was skipped in the manga, since he wouldn't have to show the Base Goku vs Final Frieza fight; doesn't help that it's implied that Goku needed Super Saiyan Blue in order to beat Frieza.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#44198: Sep 28th 2016 at 3:22:46 PM

[up][up] That doesn't mean much considering they're still both weaker than Goku who was still training with Vegeta and Whis.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#44199: Sep 28th 2016 at 3:54:37 PM

But didn't the manga cover the beginning part of RF? Like, before RF came out. Because the issue there is Goku in base was fighting evenly with a newly-trained Final Form Freeza. That's something he wouldn't have been able to do unless he did absorb the god powers into his own body. Like, in Battle of Gods, Beerus doubts he'd be able to beat Freeza without transforming.

Ugh, I don't know. Power levels are confusing. But it seemed definitely clear to me that Piccolo hadn't gotten any stronger and when Goku says he didn't stand a chance against Frost, he meant it.

Which I guess means Frost was stronger than Namek Freeza, given a Kami Fusion Piccolo was definitely stronger than Freeza. And...I guess it makes sense for a Super Saiyan Goku to demolish Frost because we know he's gotten much stronger as a Super Saiyan since Namek.

I guess that's the issue with this tournament...? This shouldn't be so difficult to figure out. There are only 5 opponents! And the matches are relatively quick!

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#44200: Sep 28th 2016 at 3:55:32 PM

That wasn't Super though, that was a promotional tie-in to the Resurrection F movie.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

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