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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#44076: Sep 27th 2016 at 4:53:35 AM

Wrong, SSJ 3 Goku gets an iris too. Though I don't recall Gotenks getting an iris out of transforming, so that's weird.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44077: Sep 27th 2016 at 4:59:17 AM

I thought you would've mentioned Videl or something, but ok.

There are many examples, but they just aren't related.

edited 27th Sep '16 5:01:10 AM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44078: Sep 27th 2016 at 5:21:02 AM

Broly vs Black

Yeah, the Broly fanboys are terrible, Koyama included, but the Hype Backlash has become equally annoying as it has lead to an echo chamber of Broly bashing. There are definitely some elements of his concept that are cliched as fuck (he's what a super saiyan SHOULD be, dammit!) but there's also some neat things that gets overlooked - like how he takes a lot of inspiration from Sun Wukong, giving him a thematic connection to Goku, or how he can easily represent the Saiyan ideal of the Super Saiyan, while being horrifying to the Saiyans in reality.

And Black really is not much better. He's equally as OC DONUT STEAL as Broly is - even more so - and I'd argue that while Super gives him more interesting character, his concept isn't interesting as Broly's could have been.

The very idea of Black's arc - someone at Toei giving the Toriyama the idea "Hey! Bring future Trunks back, and also make an evil Goku!" - is just hilariously fanfic. Not all of that can be pinned on Black, granted, but he's definitely the bigger part of that.

It sure is nice, being able to sit back and recognize that everyone but me is just shit

edited 27th Sep '16 5:21:36 AM by Saiga

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#44079: Sep 27th 2016 at 5:22:28 AM

Fanfic and F.Trunks go hand in hand. tongue

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#44080: Sep 27th 2016 at 5:33:18 AM

Behold, the Super God of Destruction, Chamus!

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#44082: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:11:41 AM

You can't really say that Goku Black isn't an interest concept because you don't even know what he is. All you have is, 'he an evil Goku', who thinks he's doing good since mortals are bad. Why and how does he thinks this way, and is he really Goku or just someone using his body? Basically, Toriyama made an idea as cliche and simple as 'evil' Goku and turned it into an interesting story and mystery.

Broly, while the concept of creating a 'true' legendary Super Saiyan with some Monkey King elements are interesting, Broly as a character isn't. If fact, I am certain most of the themes you named weren't really considered when writing Broly and even if they were, you can have good ideas, but it doesn't mean crap if it isn't done well, just look at Dragon Ball GT.

While, Future Trunks' returning and an 'evil' Goku are cliche within the fandom, the way it has been handle has been well-recieved in what many considered one of the best arcs in the franchise and Goku Black along with Zamasu are considered some of the best villains.

Which is why I always believe that executions > original ideas.

As for Beerus being scary, he isn't supposed to look scary. This is Toriyama's thing. Who looks scary, Vegeta or Nappa? What was scary, Frieza's second or third form, or his final form? The most powerful being at the end of Z was a Blob Monster shaped like bubblegum, and even in Dragon Ball the most feared assassin in the world wore a pink 'Kill You' gi and wore a ponytail. Toriyama never created villains to be bigger and scary. That was mostly in the movies with people like Broly, Bojack, and Cooler's fifth form.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#44083: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:17:11 AM

Its all in the execution baby; both Broly and Black are pretty fanfic tier concepts but Tropes Are Tools and they both show what happens when they're handled very differently.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44084: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:19:42 AM

Neither Nappa or Veggie are scary...example fail.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#44085: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:26:58 AM

An evil version of the main character isn't a fanfic cliche. It's a fiction cliche. How many evil versions Superman exists? Black Adam, an evil version of Captain Marvel, has been around since the the late 40s.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44086: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:29:23 AM

"Evil Goku" IS the concept. Toriyama can do more with it, and he clearly is, but that is what Black was originally pitched as.

And it's still a fanfiction cliche, in addition to generally being a fiction cliche. Because fanfiction tends to use it a lot more.

Edit: I am fairly sure those themes were considered for movie 8. The fact that Broly and Goku draw from the same inspiration is probably why they were made paralells, and the restraining headband subplot is straight out of Wukong's legend.

I also think the fact that both Vegeta and King Vegeta wanted nothing to do with Broly shows a good example of the "true" Saiyans being horrified by the paragon of their ideals.

edit: GT was bad ideas meets bad execution, for the most part.

And I don't really care if a lot of people praise the Black arc so highly. Amendum ad Populum or however that's spelled. It is certainly more interesting than what else Super has delivered so far, but the rest of Super has entertainment value on par with falling down the stairs.

edited 27th Sep '16 6:35:32 AM by Saiga

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#44087: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:34:30 AM

We don't know what the original pitch was since all we had was a name and people thought it might have been Bardock, Turles, or an actual 'black' Goku. Even within the show, he isn't treated like an evil Goku. Just an entity who looks like him.

Evil versions of good characters predates Fan Fictions. Doesn't matter who uses them more. Especially when almost everything in fiction uses it or an Evil Counterpart.

The similarities between Broly and Goku are so paper thinned and underused that they can be removed from the story and nothing will change. Broly hates Goku because he cried. That's what all those themes you named amounted to.

edited 27th Sep '16 6:38:46 AM by Ramona122003

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44088: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:37:53 AM

People guessing Bardock, Tullece or Blackface don't count, that's dumb.

It's very obvious what the original pitch was, because [Character] Black means exactly one thing in Japan. Whether it is actually the same base person as the hero doesn't matter next to the imagery of a dark version of the hero.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#44089: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:41:46 AM

They used the color black. Not the usual way they use black for evil characters.

Also, you can have your opinion, but overall Goku Black is a well like character and far more developed than Broly. And the U6 tournament was also well-received in Super. Those are the facts.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44090: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:46:38 AM

If I cared how well received something was I'd read 50 shades of gray

Also that is exactly how they describe evil counterparts in Japan. 100-fucking-percent

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#44091: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:48:20 AM

Are we seriously trying to argue which Evil Counterpart was more well received....

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44092: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:49:10 AM

No, I don't give a shit about that.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44093: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:49:33 AM

50 Shades of Gray is well-recieved?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44094: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:50:47 AM

Yeah, Saiga, outside of a couple animation missteps and some awkward plotting in places, Super has been a slam-dunk right from the start. The Beerus arc did some things worse than Battle of Gods, but it did almost an equivalent number of things better, same with Resurrection 'F' and its respective arc.

The U6/U7 tournament is widely regarded as the best arc in Super up to that point, as well as a solid arc for the series as a whole, and the Black/Zamasu arc is considered one of the best arcs in the entire franchise.

Additionally, Super has some of the best-written filler episodes ever, which are frequently mentioned as the episodes people are excited for just because of how good and heart-warming they are.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#44095: Sep 27th 2016 at 6:55:50 AM

[up][up] mainstream, yes

Well it was

I am more behind the times than I am in my laundry

[lol][up]

edited 27th Sep '16 6:56:19 AM by Saiga

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#44096: Sep 27th 2016 at 7:01:24 AM

[up][up]Wait, there are people who consider this saga one of the better arcs in the franchise?

Lol, this sludge doesn't even hold a candle to the Saiyan or Namek arcs.

We have two underwhelming villains, and a Future Trunks return. Hooray.

It doesn't help that all tension is voided out by Whis and Beerus still being massively stronger than the other villains.

Why even introduce time reversal? Like, why?

edited 27th Sep '16 7:02:27 AM by hardcorefakes

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#44097: Sep 27th 2016 at 7:03:49 AM

You can disagree, but just know that the majority of Dragon Ball's fanbase agrees with me on Super's quality.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#44098: Sep 27th 2016 at 7:06:42 AM

There's no reason to be surprised by that...

People like things more than you.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#44099: Sep 27th 2016 at 7:13:09 AM

I haven't really been watching Super so I wouldn't know, but I'd need more than just Pushover's word on it. Here at least, it seems like feelings on it are a mixed bag.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#44100: Sep 27th 2016 at 7:17:59 AM

I don't actually care enough to argue it's quality, but I've been enjoying it for the most part.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

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