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Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4326: Jan 28th 2014 at 4:07:25 PM

Ki sensing isn't exactly something that's always on. It was a mistake for them not to feel out for his ki when they thought those two were dead, but the point was that they were getting ahead of themselves. Not quite the same thing as what happens in the movie - sensing Cooler's ki and recognizing how strong it is, and doing nothing about it.

Kuririn's Kienzan isn't an instant win either. Both times it's been used as a sneak attack it was dodged. It's really quite easy to avoid. And it's still not the same as holding out on a transformation when you know it's needed and doesn't have much of a drawback.

It's not semantics, because given how AU movies generally are (officially described as having their own universe, whatever that means) it's possible for Goku to defeat Freeza some other way and then return to Earth.

That's not what I'm talking about at all. I'm talking about internal consistency and the series making sense with itself, not the real world. A work being unrealistic isn't the same thing as contradicting itself. I'm talking about Toei not making sense with the rest of the series, by portraying Super Saiyan differently than it is elsewhere without reason.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4327: Jan 28th 2014 at 4:08:46 PM

Solar Flare followed by Destructo Disk should kill like 99% percent of things that can't heal themselves. It annoys me that isn't used that way more often.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4329: Jan 28th 2014 at 4:22:11 PM

Again, it can be dodged from behind from people who can't sense ki, and has every time we've seen that attempted. You don't need sight to dodge it, so there's no guarantee the combo would beat anyone. I would have liked to see it attempted but whether it would work is just speculation.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4330: Jan 28th 2014 at 4:23:13 PM

[up][up]I mean, when Cell and Buu show up it's not an issue, because those two just wouldn't give a fuck. And Krillin just can't overpower them and wipe out every single piece of them. But odds are good he could cut them in half. In most cases that would be enough. Not against regeneration powers though.

[up] True. But you do need sight to know it's coming. If you can't sense ki.

Except everyone has to call their attacks in this series.

edited 28th Jan '14 4:39:39 PM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4331: Jan 28th 2014 at 4:23:59 PM

[up][up]Ok.

That excuses everyone else he didn't use it on, but it's a damned shame he didn't think of that back when he was distracting Frieza on Namek.

Solar Flare / Destructo Disk would be a pretty broken combo against enemies that can't sense Ki.

edited 28th Jan '14 4:24:06 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4332: Jan 28th 2014 at 4:25:07 PM

Although, the pain of Solar Flare usually leaves people vulnerable for a little bit. Clutching their heads and writhing because of their visual cortices and retinas.

edited 28th Jan '14 4:25:48 PM by unnoun

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4333: Jan 28th 2014 at 4:29:04 PM

Well, against Freeza he attacked from behind, without calling his attack, and Freeza still somehow noticed it before it hit him.

He did call it against Vegeta while forming it, but Vegeta apparently doesn't hear him because of the distance or something.

[up] I could see it working for that reason, but then I could see them still people able to react to it. How long someone is vulnerable is also one of those difficult to judge things.

edited 28th Jan '14 4:30:21 PM by Saiga

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4334: Jan 28th 2014 at 4:33:34 PM

"When you encounter a giant enemy, aim for the eye. No one can train one's eyes." -Shihoro Okada, Battle with the Bengal Tiger

edited 28th Jan '14 4:34:12 PM by unnoun

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4335: Jan 28th 2014 at 7:26:13 PM

So I just noticed something: Vegeta vs Semi-Perfect Cell is the only time a main villain has lost a fight aside from the final one.

King Piccolo: beats Goku, kills Chiaotzu, kills Roshi, blows up Shenron, loses to Goku in final battle. 3 wins, 1 loss.

Piccolo: Defeats Krillin, defeats Kami, flicks the entire supporting cast away, loses to Goku in final battle. 2 victories, 1 loss.

Vegeta: doesn't really qualify, since his only battle was the final battle.

Freeza: defeats Nail, draws Vegeta, transforms and defeats Vegeta, draws Piccolo, transforms and defeats Piccolo, beats up Gohan, transforms and kills Vegeta, beats up Goku, beats up Piccolo some more, kills Krillin, defeated in final battle with Goku. 5-8 victories, 2 draws, 1 loss.

Cell: has an indecisive fight with Piccolo, returns after a power up and roflstomps Piccolo, beats up 17, draws 16, absorbs 17 and then easily defeats 16, gets beaten up by Vegeta, absorbs 18 then easily defeats Vegeta, defeats Trunks, defeats Goku, beats up Gohan, defeated in final battle with Gohan. 7-ish victories, 2 draws, 2 losses.

Fat Buu: Defeats Gohan, Kaioshin, Dabra, base Gotenks, and Majin Vegeta easily back to back, draws Goku, then splits. 5 victories, 1 draw, zero losses.

Evil Buu: defeats Good Buu then transforms into Super Buu. 1 victory, zero losses.

Super Buu: defeats SS Gotenks, has trouble with but barley beats SS 3 Gotenks, looks like he's losing to Gohan but it's all part of his plan, fights ends up being indecisive until he returns later, absorbs Gotenks, then beats Gohan, beats up Goku in filler, absorbs Gohan, beats up Goku and Vegeta in filler, technically beats and kills Vegetto, beats up Goku and Vegeta in filler again, then is forced to revert to Pure Buu. 4-7 victories, zero losses.

Pure Buu: Defeats Goku, defeats Vegeta, defeats Mr. Buu, is done in by a team effort Genki Dama. Also killed or ate the four other Kaioshin in the backstory and filler. 3-7 victories, 1 loss(?).

Also, technically Majin Buu (aside from the heroic ones) never lost any fights.

edited 28th Jan '14 8:17:10 PM by sockpuppet1

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#4336: Jan 29th 2014 at 5:24:04 AM

I always thought ti looked clear to me that Super Buu was slightly stronger than SS 3 Gotenks. In addition to that, you need a much higher PL than a Buu to defeat it because of the regen. So even if Gotenks was a smidgeon stronger, he never could have won.

I hear the fight between S Buu and Gotenks is more clearly in Gotenks' favor in the manga though. I'm just going off the anime.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4337: Jan 29th 2014 at 5:28:13 AM

I don't know about the anime fight, but it's definitely in Gotenks' favor in the manga. But I think they're more or less equal - Piccolo says Gotenks is at least equal to him, and that Boo is suffering mentally from Gotenks being on his level. After Piccolo says this Gotenks seems to overwhelm him before he defuses.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#4338: Jan 29th 2014 at 6:33:38 AM

SSJ 3 Gotenks was definitely Super Buu's equal, which is why piccolo notes how damaged Buu's ego was when he realized this.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#4339: Jan 29th 2014 at 10:41:58 AM

Back to Cooler for a second. Didn't Goku use a Kaioken times 100 at some point in that fight? Why did he even bother turning Super Saiyan?

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4340: Jan 29th 2014 at 12:00:13 PM

[up][up][up][up] I don't know what the anime did, but in the manga, Gotenks completely dominated Buu. Buu got in a grand total of two hits (a headbutt and a mouth blast) in the entire fight. In return, he got a headbutted, trapped in rings, smacked around as a ball, blown up as a ball, hit with a couple dozen ki blasts, kicked in the face, punched in the face, hit with a mouth blast, double axe handled, kicked again, and hit with a round of Rapid-Fire Fisticuffs. He only won because he managed to outlast the stamina drain of Gotenks' Super Saiyan 3 form.

[up][up] Equal? Going by the fight, he seemed a hell of a lot stronger.

[up] Because the kaio-ken x 100 never showed up outside of Movie 4.

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#4341: Jan 29th 2014 at 12:49:32 PM

[up][up]

Were you watching the Japanese version with subtitles, because I didn't see or hear anything about Kaioken x100.

Goku just gets owned in this fight. That elbow drop at 2:30 makes me laugh every time.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4342: Jan 29th 2014 at 12:52:06 PM

As I said, KK x100 comes from Movie 4's theatrical pamphlet, likely to explain why Goku could defeat someone stronger than Freeza and his Super Saiyan form with just kaio-ken.

edited 29th Jan '14 12:53:00 PM by sockpuppet1

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#4343: Jan 29th 2014 at 1:13:50 PM

Or a lazier explanation is that a Zenkai occurred and Goku really was just that much stronger after Namek.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4344: Jan 29th 2014 at 1:20:25 PM

Or that fan explanation you just made up is wrong and the official material is right. Also, there is no point in the movie where Goku could have received a zenkai to make himself several times stronger like he would need to be to defeat someone stated to be stronger than his SS form with at most kaio-ken x20

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#4345: Jan 29th 2014 at 1:25:40 PM

It didn't bother me when I first watched the movie but thinking about it I have one reaction to that fight.

Dammit Goku! Go Super Saiyan already! Kaioken isn't working and you have no reason to not fight at full strength!

edited 29th Jan '14 1:25:51 PM by Kostya

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#4346: Jan 29th 2014 at 1:45:26 PM

[up]

It's my favorite Super Saiyan transformation in the English version though. I wonder if the part with Goku healing the wounded bird was an intentional reference to Gohan's transformation into a SS 2?

Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#4347: Jan 29th 2014 at 4:41:40 PM

@sockpuppet, why consider Semi-Perfect Cell's fight against Vegeta a loss, but not Super Buu's fight against Gohan? Both villains were outclassed, but used their opponents' typical Saiyan hubris against them to gain a more powerful form that dominated their respective saiyan opponents.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4348: Jan 29th 2014 at 5:39:02 PM

Equal? Going by the fight, he seemed a hell of a lot stronger.

Yes, but there are multiple quotes supporting them being close to equal at the minimum. I think Gotenks is baaaarely stronger. The reason he did so well is because Boo was mentally shaken up by Gotenks being on his level, so I think that made him fight poorly. It'd be a situation similar to Vegeta vs Zarbon or Dodoria, where he easily defeated them with a small advantage.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#4349: Jan 29th 2014 at 7:26:47 PM

So, It took me until now to realize, but damn are the movies way more violent than the show.....I like that.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4350: Jan 29th 2014 at 7:31:38 PM

So I was watching all the special fight conversations for Raging Blast 2, and I think my favorite is Cell trying to talk shop with Super Buu. [lol]

My various fanfics.

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