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Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#4301: Jan 27th 2014 at 2:20:44 PM

[up][up][up][up] Did it ever actually say that he used a Kaio-ken x100, or is that hyperbole?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4302: Jan 27th 2014 at 2:25:26 PM

Hey, question. Why do people think Cooler is stronger than Frieza? Frieza at least went five minutes with Super Saiyan Goku. Cooler's bullshit ultimate transformation went five SECONDS.

My various fanfics.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#4303: Jan 27th 2014 at 2:36:59 PM

Goku was holding back against Frieza. Also, Goku is supposed to have gotten stronger between Frieza and Cooler.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4304: Jan 27th 2014 at 2:47:17 PM

[up][up] Because Goku said Cooler was stronger than Freeza. He says it in the original while Cooler is transforming:

Goku: Incredible...his ki is even greater than Freeza's!

Also, remember which Goku this is; the Goku that had gotten home from Yardrat, and trained some more in preparation for the androids (he was stated to have become stronger since he "returned" at the beginning of the movie). A stronger Goku than the one that that could stop Trunks' offensive with his finger. And people often exaggerate Cooler's performance in that short fight; sure, his half-assed punch got tanked, but he proceeded to laugh off a punch and kick in turn. While he actually got knocked back and seemingly hurt by those hits, namely the hard shot to the gut, making that feat less impressive than Goku taking Cooler's hit without budging, he still took no actual damage and was completely fine. Contrast Freeza's gut shot from Goku. More importantly, his and Goku's 'beam struggle' immediately after left Goku so spent and useless that he dropped out of SS and couldn't even move under his own power. He was so weakened from fighting Cooler that Salza was about to kill him. When you consider Future Trunks couldn't do shit to a weaker Goku's finger, that's not so bad.

[up][up][up] It comes from that movie's pamphlet. Probably to explain why Goku could floor a guy stated to be stronger than a Super Saiyan and Freeza with just kaio-ken.

edited 27th Jan '14 3:03:32 PM by sockpuppet1

FOFD Since: Apr, 2013
#4305: Jan 27th 2014 at 2:49:55 PM

Cooler gathers energy faster. The films have the benefit of not needing to be released every week and having contained storylines, thus, shorter fight scenes. Goku had a motive for dragging out the fight with Frieza, and he didn't with Cooler, so one punch to the gut - game over.

In the English version at least, Cooler says that he found a fifth form "beyond" Cooler's final form. I don't remember how many episodes/chapters Frieza's fight lasted, but Cooler proceeded to pummel Goku, both in normal state and in Kaioken, within five minutes.

He's far better than Frieza. So much better they gave him a movie and turned Frieza into a Worf measuring stick.

[down][up]

-respectful nod-

edited 27th Jan '14 2:54:15 PM by FOFD

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4306: Jan 27th 2014 at 2:53:12 PM

Also, Goku states Cooler is stronger than Freeza immediately after he transforms, yet is still shocked when his kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha does nothing to the guy. So Cooler isn't just stronger by a little bit.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4307: Jan 27th 2014 at 3:51:06 PM

I do think they dropped the ball in portraying Cooler from a meta perspective, though. Even though Goku had simply gotten stronger (much stronger in this movie, since Cooler implies base Goku would defeat Freeza) it doesn't make sense to create a villain specifically meant to be better than Freeza and have him overcome by the same form. Just kind of a waste.

sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4308: Jan 27th 2014 at 4:50:47 PM

He didn't imply it so much as outright say it...

Blackyakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#4309: Jan 28th 2014 at 6:17:37 AM

Cooler in general just seemed like a blatant fanfic character; a sibling of the strongest opponent the heroes have faced, whom we knew nothing about and is stronger than said foe too, but has yet another transformation.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
sockpuppet1 Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
#4310: Jan 28th 2014 at 2:18:02 PM

Absolutely nothing compared to the obvious fanfic characters that get introduced later. A few, ESPECIALLY Trunks, from the actual manga, and others, such as Broly, from the movies.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4311: Jan 28th 2014 at 2:38:43 PM

Wouldn't Goku have been training for the androids when Cooler showed up?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#4312: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:06:34 PM

Yeah. In fact, in the movie, it's said that it takes place between the Frieza and Android sagas during the three years of training.

It would almost work too, except that Piccolo was supposed to be living with Goku, Gohan and Chi-Chi at that time, so there was no reason for him to pull the disappearing act at the end.

Beyond that, it doesn't really contradict anything in the series beyond the fact that it's never mentioned.

One Strip! One Strip!
SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4313: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:08:31 PM

Except for the fact that Goku had difficulty turning Super Saiyan, whereas when he returned at the start of the Android Saga, he could turn Super Saiyan whenever he wanted.

My various fanfics.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4314: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:10:17 PM

...Could he?

It seemed like he didn't really get control of it until the thing where he stayed Super for like a week.

edited 28th Jan '14 3:13:50 PM by unnoun

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4315: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:17:16 PM

Trunks: Turn Super Saiyain.

Goku: Gimme a sec. turns Super Saiyan

vs.

Goku: Oh God, getting beaten to death! If only I could channel my Super Saiyan powers again!

My various fanfics.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4316: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:18:01 PM

Well, Cooler didn't give him a sec. Trunks did.

edited 28th Jan '14 3:18:18 PM by unnoun

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4317: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:18:54 PM

And also, that's half the reason he was away for two years. Learning both Instant Trasmission and to turn Super Saiyan at will.

SonOfSharknado Love is Love is Love Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
Love is Love is Love
#4318: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:20:17 PM

I know. Which makes the idea that fits in the normal timeline a bit difficult to swallow. The only Universe where Revenge of Cooler works is one where Goku lets himself get wished back to Earth, and things proceed as normal.

My various fanfics.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4319: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:20:42 PM

Characters being dumb and not remembering the things they can do is kinda common though.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4320: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:22:21 PM

Not really, and not to that extent. Goku is pretty trigger happy on Super Saiyan once he gets it, but Toei like making him fight most opponents in base first.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4321: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:24:25 PM

You say that like it's a bad thing on Toei's part. I think to some extent the continuous escalation wasn't really a strength of the series.

The one nice thing I will say about GT is that it remembered certain elements like the Great Ape and Android 17 and tried to do things with them.

...It didn't use them especially well but still.

Anyway. I mean, Goku got sneak attacked and was out of it for pretty early on, and when he recovered it still took a little time before Super Saiyan was that necessary. And when he wasn't distracted by being beat up. Concentrating on things can get kinda difficult sometimes.

Overall it's a pretty minor thing, unlike all the movies where everyone is alive and on Earth except Gohan and Piccolo are friends and Vegeta isn't there and Super Saiyan isn't quite a thing yet.

edited 28th Jan '14 3:30:01 PM by unnoun

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4322: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:29:15 PM

No, I say that like it's a thing Toei did which was inconsistent with the series. It was a bad thing, but only because Toei often did it in a way that didn't make sense, like leaving Super Saiyan looking like it was no stronger than a Saiyan's base form.

Goku can sense ki. The moment Cooler transforms (which gives him plenty of time), he would know he needs Super Saiyan, but he doesn't do it. Given that this is mirroring the battle with Freeza, it's portrayed like he turned into a Super Saiyan for the first time.

edited 28th Jan '14 3:29:31 PM by Saiga

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4323: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:31:17 PM

You say that like being inconsistent with the series is a bad thing on Toei's part. Again, not too sure about that.

Except he already killed Frieza and used Super Saiyan to do it. So no, it's not that.

And, again, it's not like characters being dumb and not remembering to do things they can do is uncommon in this series.

And it's still a minor thing. It seems almost petty not to overlook it. Everyone is alive at roughly a point where they could be alive.

edited 28th Jan '14 3:34:54 PM by unnoun

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#4324: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:40:00 PM

I don't like inconsistency in general, and in this case I'm pretty sure it's bad because it ends up just not making sense.

And I don't remember exactly but I don't think it's ever said in the movie he was a Super Saiyan when he beat Freeza. Just that he beat Freeza on Namek.

Nobody has that kind of forgetfulness in the main series.

How is that petty? There's no reason to overlook it, and all I'm doing is pointing it out. Not saying it ruins the movie or anything.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#4325: Jan 28th 2014 at 3:48:51 PM

Nobody has that kind of forgetfulness in the main series.

The time they use the Spirit Bomb on Vegeta and think he's dead even when they should be able to sense him.

The time they use the Spirit Bomb on Frieza and think he's dead when they should be able to sense him.

Krillin never using the Destructo Disk on enemies that don't have regeneration and need their bodies in one piece to live.

And I don't remember exactly but I don't think it's ever said in the movie he was a Super Saiyan when he beat Freeza. Just that he beat Freeza on Namek.

Semantics.

I don't like inconsistency in general, and in this case I'm pretty sure it's bad because it ends up just not making sense.

...You say that like not making sense is a bad thing. And also like this series ever made an excess of sense to begin with.

Wasn't there a villain that turned people into carrots?

edited 28th Jan '14 3:51:58 PM by unnoun


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