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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#43201: Aug 26th 2016 at 9:40:26 PM

Wasn't that because Cell didn't put any effort at all into that. The guy wasn't worth killing. Which sounds weird when considering it's Cell, but, eh.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#43202: Aug 26th 2016 at 9:42:18 PM

Honestly, even the bare minimum effort from Cell would have killed most people so Satan surviving is still impressive.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#43203: Aug 26th 2016 at 9:43:13 PM

Yeah, but it'd take conscious effort to hold back enough to not kill a completely normal human.

I imagine Cell barely registered his presence and decided it might be fun to knock him away like a gnat. Probably didn't expect him to survive at all, and never actually noticed that he lived.

edited 26th Aug '16 9:44:06 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Cruherrx I say things. from my own little world Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
I say things.
#43204: Aug 26th 2016 at 10:12:41 PM

Of course it's a conscious effort, IANCE. Even King Piccolo would have to make a conscious effort not to kill a human.

"If you weren't so crazy I'd think you were insane."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#43205: Aug 26th 2016 at 10:16:45 PM

I mean, he is supposed to be the strongest non-ki using human, right? That doesn't mean much but him being tougher than most isn't unexpected. Really, though, I think the explanation is that it was a joke "fight" and not meant to be taken seriously.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#43206: Aug 26th 2016 at 10:20:35 PM

Fairly sure Chichi doesn't use Ki and is stronger than him. She'd kinda have to be to survive Goten.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#43207: Aug 26th 2016 at 10:48:08 PM

Ya know, if you think about it, everyone in the old Budokai games had the same combo-strings. The only difference seems whether your characters has a weapon or not. Tenkaichi had a similar problem, but it was mostly due to it's quantity-over-quality ordeal. Both series are good games nonetheless, but it became pretty obvious to me when I went back to play Budokai 3 and Tenkaichi 3.

I think Xenoverse and Zenkai Battle are the only games that seem to have unique combo-strings for most of the characters. Sure, there'll be some clones due to have different forms as separate slots, but other than that, every different character has their own basic moveset based on attacks they did in the manga, the show or the movies.

edited 26th Aug '16 10:49:20 PM by Rinsankajugin

Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#43208: Aug 27th 2016 at 4:47:56 AM

Continuing the Mr Satan coward argument, I'm pretty sure you can't call his behavior bravery, but overconfidence. Like those people who talk about how badass they are and that if they were in certain situations(say against an armed robber), they could beat them down like action movie heroes. When faced with Buu, he just assumed that poisonous chocolate and small amounts of C4 can actually hurt a being that surpassed the previous monster that survived larger explosions. He's not a coward(unless you compare to every other non-Saiyan Z-fighter), but not exactly an example of bravery.

Lampodigenio Insert cool sentence here from Somewhere in Western Europe Since: Dec, 2015 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
Insert cool sentence here
#43209: Aug 27th 2016 at 8:50:02 AM

Is someone disrespecting the champ that saved the world from Cell and Majin Buu?!

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#43210: Aug 27th 2016 at 9:23:16 AM

On Kaioshin's strength:

Perfect Cell line came from the guidebooks

I'd like for you to point out where, because there is no such claim in any of the Daizenshuu/Chozenshuu.

Pro-tip: disregard everything if someone can't even tell you WHICH guidebook it allegedly comes from.

Anyway, East Kaioshin is not equal to Perfect Cell or SS2 Gohan. The manga disproves this through several points:

  • Kaioshin admits inferiority to Goku, when he knows nothing of his afterlife progress or Super Saiyan 2.
  • He also backs down from a threat from Super Saiyan 1 Goku, who would have blasted him away if he had not.
  • He thinks the group have no chance of beating Dabra, who is about equal with Perfect Cell and fought fairly evenly with Super Saiyan 1 Gohan.
  • He's amazed by Super Saiyan 1 Gohan's power, and has confidence in his potential to lift the Z Sword after seeing it. Something he isn't capable of.

The only way to really interpret Kaioshin as being any stronger is to go with the interpretation that Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 when fighting Dabra, Majin Boo, and pulling out the Z sword, despite the manga making it clear that he's a Super Saiyan 1 and Kaioshin being weaker than Super Saiyan Goku.

Speaking of Super Saiyan 1 Gohan, Kaioshin later realizes that when he restrained Super Saiyan 2 Gohan, Gohan wasn't actually at full power (the protagonists never use full power when standing idle). And then he tells Kibito that he didn't get to see (Super Saiyan 1) Gohan's tremendous power, meaning that Super Saiyan 2 Gohan at the tournament gives off less power than Super Saiyan 1 Gohan that is actually fighting. So the feat of barely restraining him is much less impressive when you keep that in mind.

Kaoishin is inferior to Super Saiyan 1 Goku and Gohan, stronger than Piccolo, that's the most concrete information we have.

For the other Kaioshin, we really don't have much to go off. East Kaioshin mentions that countless Kaioshin have failed to pull the Z sword, but Super Saiyan 1 Gohan is able to do so with some difficulty. That would suggest that most, if not all, Kaioshin since Old Kaioshin's time have been weaker than Super Saiyan 1 Gohan. It's not impossible for them to be stronger but simply not attempted to lift the sword, YMMV on how much sense that makes.

In the manga we only know two things: Pure Boo absorbed Dai Kaioshin and South Kaioshin, and that Buff Boo was stronger than Evil Boo. Given that Boo's fusion is said to be additive earlier, a fairly simple interpretation is that Buff Boo is literally just Pure Boo + South Kaioshin's power, which would make South pretty damn strong to be able to bring Pure Boo above Evil Boo's level. And that's still the best we can do.

We can't even be sure South forced Pure Boo to absorb him, simply because after absorbing South, Pure Boo went on to absorb Dai Kaioshin despite Dai Kaioshin being weaker than South and definitely weaker than Pure Boo with South absorbed. So he could have had other reasons for absorbing them, we don't know enough.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#43211: Aug 27th 2016 at 9:29:49 AM

Buu is a pretty chaotic entity. It probably absorbed them because it could.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#43212: Aug 27th 2016 at 9:31:05 AM

Considering how crazy Pure / Evil Boo is, his reasons for absorbing both Kaioushins might be nothing more then because I can.

That dude ain't exactly rational.

As for Gohan, he was really only Super Saiyan 1 when fighting Dabura? Are you kidding? I mean, now that I think about it, I recall you mentioning it before that what level he was at during that fight was ambiguous, but that really annoys me if it's true.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#43213: Aug 27th 2016 at 9:43:18 AM

It's ambiguous, and not really worth arguing about. The greatest minds of the internet have debated it since it happened, with no solution in sight. My two cents: Gohan must've been Super Saiyan 2, because his child self's Super Saiyan 1 never stood a chance against Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell, much less his even weaker Teenage Super Saiyan 1.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#43214: Aug 27th 2016 at 10:14:05 AM

[up][up]To be fair, Gohan at SSJ 1 could very well be a match for Dabura, even weakened by lack of training.

Gohan surely didn't lose that much power, and SSJ 1 Gohan should be around equal with Super Perfect Cell, who is noticeably stronger than Perfect Cell. If Dabura is at Perfect Cell's level, which is what's implied, then it makes perfect sense and supports the theory that Gohan was, indeed, stronger than Super Perfect Cell even as SSJ 1.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#43215: Aug 27th 2016 at 10:17:04 AM

We don't all agree with your assertion that Super Saiyan 1 Gohan is equal to Super Perfect Cell, and we've been over it before. You should stop taking that as a given.

edited 27th Aug '16 10:17:47 AM by LSBK

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#43216: Aug 27th 2016 at 10:21:52 AM

Where did I imply that I think that? I'm literally saying that Gohan being SSJ 1 during the fight with Dabura is support for the theory that SSJ 1 Gohan is stronger than Super Perfect Cell. I did not say it's an absolute fact, even though I believe that it is, I am saying that this would support that theory.

You, who complained that I strawman people, are doing exactly that.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#43217: Aug 27th 2016 at 10:23:14 AM

I don't think you know what a strawman is. Misunderstanding a person's point is not the same thing as deliberately caricaturing it or blatantly acting as if people have never responded to you just because they said something you don't like, things you do constantly during discussion.

edited 27th Aug '16 10:27:03 AM by LSBK

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#43218: Aug 27th 2016 at 10:35:05 AM

Are we doing it again? The thing were no one can say anything without firs putting an disclaimer explain how it is just their opinion and some people might disagree with it? How about we don't do that instead, because that's retarded.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#43219: Aug 27th 2016 at 10:36:09 AM

I don't think that was the issue here. But, yeah, that is stupid.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#43220: Aug 27th 2016 at 1:06:18 PM

@Saiga: But at the least we can say South Supreme Kai was stronger than East S K, right?

Meaning it would have probably benefited Beerus more if South was the one that had survived.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#43221: Aug 27th 2016 at 1:11:40 PM

Honestly, I'm pretty sure Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 when he fought Dabura and Majin Buu, he just couldn't get the same rage boosts he once could get, which are implied to be why he was so above Cell in the first place.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#43222: Aug 27th 2016 at 2:59:01 PM

...Looking back, Gohan's rage boosts might be due to helplessness.

He constantly watched his friends get murdered in front of him, while he could do nothing but watch, except for one point during the battle where he even ran away when he was supposed to do something.

So he flipped out, getting mad enough to bring his power to bear, but even then it wasn't enough.

Now comes Cell, and Gohan knows that he's got the power, and that bringing it out is the only way to fight Cell, but he's more aware of himself and afraid he might do something awful in the process (perhaps fearing that he might lose control to such an extent that he destroys the planet and makes the victory moot, which is a valid fear for a kid with that much power and that deep an understanding of how much shit he could wreck). Then he again watches his friends getting clobbered (with his dad among them) and is doing nothing.

Then 16 dies, and he realizes this time is different. It's not a physical weakness. It's a mental one this time. He chose not to act despite knowing he could and 16 got his head smashed in because of it. So he goes all out. He thinks of all those times he watched those he cared about get slaughtered and he couldn't help and realizes that this time the only thing holding him back is himself, so he mans up, and lets it all out....

And fucks up anyway. But that's besides the point. Now that Gohan has the power, he can't tap his full rage because he's no longer limited to sitting and watching. He can act. It may be that (and I still hate that it happened) Gohan's drop in power is not due to lack of training, but lack of that spark to set him off. Now that he's powerful enough to take on most comers (even if the plot demands he still be too weak when it matters) he can't get pissed enough to wreck everyone like he used to.

In a sense, becoming stronger made Gohan weaker, as he now lacks the key ingredient to his hidden power: rage born of helplessness.

This is just my idea though and it's better than anything else, so shut your smart mouthed traps! so feel free to disagree.

Unless your Saiga. Then just acknowledge that I'm right.

That's right. There's no harm in disagreeing. None whatsoever, and I'll respect your opinion utterly.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#43223: Aug 27th 2016 at 5:30:23 PM

So it seems Black and Zamasu are not the same person.

edited 27th Aug '16 5:43:51 PM by Cortez

LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#43224: Aug 27th 2016 at 5:33:43 PM

You may want to spoiler tag that.

Also, I totally called it. They were being too obvious while not just coming out and saying it.

This song needs more love.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#43225: Aug 27th 2016 at 5:35:02 PM

Guess it was too obvious....

Though we shouldn't count our eggs before they're hatched. As long as the arc is ongoing, we can't put it past Toriyama to still pull the rug out from under us, even if it looks like things are done with.

One Strip! One Strip!

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