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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#42751: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:24:53 PM

Vegeta was confirmed to be 30,000 when he fought Recoom and Jeice freaked when he thought Goku was over 60,000.

And that 5% is a flawed guess since Goku was 3 million and he was using the Kaio-Ken the whole time.

edited 10th Aug '16 3:27:12 PM by Ramona122003

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#42752: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:27:48 PM

No, 5% is what Frieza himself said he was using.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#42753: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:29:40 PM

Frieza never said he was using 5%. The only line that come close is the 1% line and that's in the dub. In the original text, he just says half his power would crush Goku.

edited 10th Aug '16 3:30:01 PM by Ramona122003

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#42754: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:33:46 PM

...no, I'm pretty sure Frieza actually did say he was using 5% of his power; considering if Goku really was using the Kaio-ken while he was fighting Frieza, it'd only bring him up to the exact same power level that Frieza had.

edited 10th Aug '16 3:34:06 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#42755: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:35:16 PM

Please find a reference to this. Because the only one that come close is the 1% line from the dub.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#42756: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:35:20 PM

Freeza never said that, and Goku didn't use the Kaio-Ken until Freeza went up to 50%.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#42757: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:56:20 PM

5% of 120 mil is 6 mil. It's plausible that Freeza was only using 5% of his full power against Vegeta.

[up] No, Kaiou specifically states that Goku was using the Kaiouken the entire time. Freeza only went to 50% when Goku used the Kaiouken x20.

edited 10th Aug '16 3:57:16 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#42758: Aug 10th 2016 at 3:59:24 PM

No, Frieza actually had to use more than 50% of his power to deal with Goku at that point, since Goku with a Kaio-ken x20 would have been equal to Frieza at 50%, especially since he was using a Kamehameha at that point, which would have most likely have been more powerful than what Goku himself was at.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#42759: Aug 10th 2016 at 4:02:51 PM

True.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#42760: Aug 10th 2016 at 4:28:44 PM

The databooks are bullshit anyways. There's no way that someone only twice as strong as a generic farmer can tank bullets and shatter metal axes on their skulls.

That's because numbers without units are meaningless. They are numbers without meaning. It isn't "twice as strong", it is "twice his power level".

Take for example temperature, which has 4 commonly used measurements (because you darn Americans and your lack of international units): Celsius, Kelvin, Fahrenheit and Rankine. A Celsius degree and a Kelvin degree are the same, with the difference being where it is measured: Celsius has 0 degrees for the melting point of ice, and, as that isn't the lowest possible temperature, it has negatives, while Kelvin has 0 as the lowest possible temperature. Rankine is pretty much the Kelvin equivalent for Fahrenheit, as it has 0 at the lowest possible temperature.

So, room temperature on a spring day? 22 °C, 71.6 ºF, 295 ºK and 531.3 ºR. Same stuff, all right.

TWICE room temperature? Well, that'd be 44 ºC, 142.2 ºF, 590 ºK and 1062.6 ºR.

44 Celsius is a heatwave. 142.2 Fahrenheit is the record high in the Death Valley, and 590 Kelvin and 1062 Rankine are beyond what most ovens can reach and close to the melting point of lead.

So, without magnitudes, numbers are bullshit. First thing you learn when you have to use numbers to work with stuff; you learn what those numbers mean.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#42761: Aug 10th 2016 at 4:32:32 PM

[up]The without units thing is the only reasonable complaint I've ever seen on the subject.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#42762: Aug 10th 2016 at 4:32:45 PM

No, you're wrong. Goku shows up, he and Freeza fight, Freeza says that he can win effortlessly at 50%, even factoring in Goku's suppressed power (Kaio-Ken), Goku uses Kaio-Kenx10, and when that doesn't work, he takes it up to Kaio-Kenx20. Goku doesn't even start Kaio-Ken until Freeza goes to 50%, and Freeza never states how much power he's using until he goes to 50%.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#42763: Aug 10th 2016 at 4:33:46 PM

Well it could be logarithmic for the numbers, seeing as how apparently a normal human being possessing ki only needs to be 2000 times stronger than the average to destroy entire planets.

[up] And it's only suppressed when Goku is using less than his full base power, Kaio-ken not factoring into it.

edited 10th Aug '16 4:34:48 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#42764: Aug 10th 2016 at 4:46:45 PM

BTW, at the end, all that matters is "X is stronger than Y". Trying to make anything substancial out of a temporarily used system that IS arbitrary (What is the difference between Vegeta being 18000 or 30000 from a narrative standpoint? Goku would have gotten a power level enough to stomp Nappa anyway, and would have had trouble with Vegeta without the Kaioken anyway, because the narrative would be this anyway: Cannon Fodder < Nappa < Goku < Vegeta < Kaioken.

Hell, the narrative is ALWAYS Cannon Fodder < Weaker villain < Hero < Stronger villain < Heroic thumb card.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#42765: Aug 10th 2016 at 7:35:36 PM

@ Soble: Kuwabara 44 is the EX fusion of Android 44 and Kuwabara, an Android Earthling and a Kai Other-Worlder respectively.

Anyways, here's an updated list of Dragon Ball Fusion's roster.

There's still a ton of characters and fusions that have yet been unlocked, so I'll update it once more once everything else has been revealed. Considering that Jump has still been revealing characters and fusions as recent as last week, it'll be a while before this list is complete.

Any thoughts?

edited 10th Aug '16 7:36:12 PM by Rinsankajugin

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#42766: Aug 10th 2016 at 7:36:17 PM

You people are hopeless... but I'm going to be an idiot and try anyway, so pay attention.

Trying to make sense of the power levels is a pointless exercise when they have no logical scale as a basis, nothing behind the said units. A foot, a unit of measure, was based on a king's foot. So even if you were bad at maths you could reasonably visualize twenty feet in your head. An inch, that's that same king scrunching up his pointer finger. The metric system is even better, as centimeters are the same exact unit as meters, just smaller. Give or take a zero as necessary. Water freezes at zero Celsius. That's something to go off of.

Series like Astro Boy and Mega Man use units of measure we already know, like horsepower, for their power levels. You can actually do the math to find out how strong the robots would be.(Zero kicks Bass's can) Series like Dragon Ball and Star Wars use bullshit. That doesn't necessarily make them worse, but it also means it is entirely possible for Tambourine to have a power level of 130 and Cymbal to have a power level of 131 and Cymbal to be several times stronger than Tambourine. It's entire possible, however improbable, for old King Piccolo to have a power level of 259 and Young Piccolo Daimo to have a power level of 260 and still need only half of his power to beat Goku while old.

Recall, Freezer had a power level of one million the first time he transformed. He transformed again, becoming even more than a million and then again, becoming even more than a million, then went to 100%, going even further than a million. Past a million to the third degree! He was still weaker than Super Goku, who became stronger training for the androids, who became stronger again training for Cell, who became stronger again training in the afterlife since he got to keep his body. Past a million to the seventh degree! Yet super Goku only measure in the thousands when his power level was measured by Babadi? In fact, he'd only be ten times stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta according to Babadi's readings and explanation even though he had reached that mark without become a super saiyan back on Namek.

It's still somewhere in the realm of reasonable, if an exercise in futility to actually try to figure out the math behind it when there are nothing to base the units of measure on. But then Babadi clearly uses a different scale than the planet trade federation, the most common fan wank is that his is logarithmic if the planet trade's is linear. That means ratios working on 2X2=4 are meaningless when using Babadi's scale because we don't even know the logarithm. But you're also assuming the planet trade federation use a linear scale rather than logarithmic. The fact that 18,000 of anything, be it measured by weight or potential energy, is enough to destroy a planet the size of the Earth strongly suggests the use of a logarithmic scale and Babadi's using an even bigger base logarithm to avoid writing too many zeroes(he was using a handheld).

Even if you know exactly how much energy is in a 1.0 Earthquake, it's impossible for you to know how much is in a 2.0 unless you know the Earthquake scale uses a base 10 logarithm(or you manually measure it yourself). Not only do we not know the base logarithm, not only do we not know if there even is a base logarithm as opposed to a linear scale or some stranger method of measure being in place, we don't even know what the numbers are working off of to begin with.

The purpose of power levels, was to build towards Freeza. We knew 530,000 was larger than anything else to a very large degree and then we see him go to a 1,000,000 just to up the Holy Shit Quotient. And then the concept of numerical power levels was done away with, because the creator probably hadn't put that much thought into them besides being a clever way to set up the most powerful fighter in the known universe.

edited 10th Aug '16 7:44:36 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#42767: Aug 10th 2016 at 7:37:25 PM

Holy Walls!!

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#42768: Aug 10th 2016 at 7:46:01 PM

Even Donald Trump would call that wall excessive.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#42769: Aug 10th 2016 at 7:48:45 PM

[up][up][up][up]Has a Whis/Vados fusion been discovered? It's kind of hard to tell with some of those names.

This song needs more love.
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#42770: Aug 10th 2016 at 7:49:25 PM

That wall was an effort to block another three pages of power levels debate in the future. I think the only argument against it, is that it probably won't work.

I suppose power level debate in Dragon Ball is better than the shipping debates of almost every other fandom, but it still annoys me.

Buldogue's lawyer
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#42771: Aug 10th 2016 at 7:55:14 PM

[up][up] Unfortunately no, it doesn't seem that any of the Universe 6 characters have fusions other than with the CAC.

Though, Fusions does have a QR code scanner and download options, so maybe more characters and fusions will come as DLC or QR codes, just like Future Gohanks, Taks, Great Satanman and Gorus.

edited 10th Aug '16 7:56:10 PM by Rinsankajugin

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#42772: Aug 10th 2016 at 8:20:09 PM

[up][up]So about that Goku/Bulma ship...

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#42773: Aug 10th 2016 at 8:33:55 PM

What is the power level of that ship?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#42774: Aug 10th 2016 at 9:02:58 PM

@ IAT: We could talk about games.

Oh yeah, a reminder, a Bamco livestream is happening tomorrow that has to do with Xenoverse 2.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#42775: Aug 10th 2016 at 10:04:08 PM

I am surprised we haven't heard more of Xenoverse 2. I mean, it comes out in October, right?


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