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LordVatek Not really a lord of anything Since: Sep, 2014
Not really a lord of anything
#41851: Jul 17th 2016 at 5:19:33 PM

There's always been a blanket belief that she's stronger since she's a movie villain (in one of the few movies that could conceivably be canon) that comes after a the Cell arc, which, but the nature of the Sorting Algorithm of Evil, means she has to be stronger than the previous villains or at the least, about as strong as them.

Well she's a movie villain's henchwoman, which is a few leagues lower. By that logic, Sauza should be as strong as Frieza.

This song needs more love.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#41852: Jul 17th 2016 at 5:21:50 PM

[up][up]"Untrained Super Saiyan" and "Trained Super Saiyan" aren't proper ranks of power.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#41854: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:03:37 PM

Semantics.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#41855: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:17:24 PM

That's not semantics. It's a very important detail.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#41856: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:19:12 PM

I think it means "Goku as he was during the Frieza Saga as a Super Saiyan" and "Goku in the Cell Games Saga as a Full Power Super Saiyan".

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#41857: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:22:47 PM

18, on the other hand, is only stronger than an untrained Super Saiyan.

I think it means "Goku as he was during the Frieza Saga as a Super Saiyan" and "Goku in the Cell Games Saga as a Full Power Super Saiyan".

I knew what Rob was referring to.

What else would a trained Super Saiyan be? Goku and Gohan are the only ones who "trained" the original state.

edited 17th Jul '16 6:27:06 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#41858: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:26:59 PM

The point is that "Super Saiyan" isn't a definite level. There's no level of power you specifically need to be at to reach it, or a level of power where you shift to a "trained" Super Saiyan from an "untrained" Super Saiyan.

Everything is relative to the specific character in question.

edited 17th Jul '16 6:27:26 PM by LSBK

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#41859: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:28:41 PM

You know, I'm surprised Super hasn't had Trunks learn that Krillin married and had a kid with 18 yet.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#41860: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:31:46 PM

Yeah, basically Goku as a full power super saiyan is better then Vegeta as an untrained super saiyan because he trained himself to be used to the power drain, and —as Vegeta put it—be able to fight for far longer due to not using up a much energy in a fight.

Trunks also noted it would let him power up even further , though that wasn't the main point.

So since Gohan went through this training as well, and Zangya was able to fight effectively against him (though only with the help of the others as opposed to one on one) that would imply she's stronger than 18, who had a protracted battle against Vegeta before Full Power Super Saiyan became a thing.

That's just a guess though. There's no actual proof.

[up] Been waiting for that one myself actually. Really want to see how he takes it.

edited 17th Jul '16 6:32:33 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#41861: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:32:28 PM

Except there is; a "trained" Super Saiyan is the Full Power Super Saiyan, the state where the form is as easy to maintain as the user's base form and where ki consumption is nil, meaning that the energy that would be taken up in the transformation itself and in maintaining it can instead be used to boost the Saiyan's power even further.

[nja]

edited 17th Jul '16 6:32:49 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#41862: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:34:10 PM

[up]Yes but speaking as if being in that state leads to a definitive, standard power is wrong. It various with the individual, like everything else.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#41863: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:38:03 PM

Fair enough. Even if Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is (or was) stronger than Vegeta, that doesn't mean Full Power Super Saiyan Gohan is stronger than Full Power Super Saiyan Vegeta, so it's possible that until he unleashed his power, Gohan wasn't that much stronger than Bojack's goons.

Again, all speculation though.

Unless Toriyama decides to somehow bring back Bojack and company into Super and make them actually canon, then give them set levels, we'll never really know where any of them stand.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#41864: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:40:49 PM

Full Power Super Saiyan Gohan definitely was stronger than Vegeta in the same state at that point.

I'd like to remind you that Cell could barely scratch Gohan and Gohan thought Goku, who was fighting at full power, was only playing around because that was how weak they seemed to him. Gohan at that point was absurdly powerful in comparison to everyone else, even without factoring in SSJ 2.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#41865: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:42:00 PM

Except we later found out that Cell was still holding back, and never actually went all out until Gohan became a Super Saiyan 2, so we really don't know how SS Gohan would have compared to that.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#41866: Jul 17th 2016 at 6:42:37 PM

[up]That.

edited 17th Jul '16 6:43:08 PM by LSBK

KnownUnknown Since: Jan, 2001
#41867: Jul 17th 2016 at 7:17:11 PM

You know, I'm surprised Super hasn't had Trunks learn that Krillin married and had a kid with 18 yet.

I guess it's just that nobody's really gotten around to bringing it up yet. Him and Krillin have only had a short conversation so far. But I'm looking forward to it if it does happen.

On the on hand, he was okay - if begrudging and clearly in disagreement - with keeping her alive back in the Cell Saga, and he knows enough to assume Krillin kept pursuing a relationship with her.

On the other hand, he's in full PTSD mode right now. Given how many jarring flashbacks he's been having simply seeing her face might end with the entire neighborhood being sliced to ribbons.

Which I guess means it's a good thing Krillin's "entire neighborhood" consists of one island and a turtle.

edited 17th Jul '16 7:18:14 PM by KnownUnknown

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#41868: Jul 17th 2016 at 8:02:05 PM

Krillin actually has a job now, though, doesn't he live in the city?

edited 17th Jul '16 8:02:12 PM by DarkHunter

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#41869: Jul 17th 2016 at 8:12:24 PM

They still live at Turtle house...this is correct until proven falsely.

edited 17th Jul '16 8:13:38 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#41870: Jul 17th 2016 at 8:13:59 PM

And we already know that SSJ 2 Gohan at half strength was still more powerful than a Cell who was even more powerful than the Cell that stopped holding back or at least only slightly weaker.

With SSJ 2 being SSJ x 2, well, that means Gohan was still stronger.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#41871: Jul 17th 2016 at 8:19:15 PM

[up]We've been over this before, that's one interpretation of things, but is by no means a fact. You should stop talking as if it is.

edited 17th Jul '16 8:19:34 PM by LSBK

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#41872: Jul 17th 2016 at 9:47:51 PM

Number #4: Bichi.

Number #3: Gogetto.

Come on Dragonball F make it happen.

edited 17th Jul '16 9:49:21 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#41873: Jul 17th 2016 at 9:50:54 PM

Mai: "I need an adult."

Trunks: "I am an adult."

Pilaf and Shu: "You were an adult!"

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#41874: Jul 17th 2016 at 10:21:04 PM

Also, 18 is way stronger than Zangya until someone demonstrates that Zangya does in fact have that super saiyan knockoff Gokua and Bojack had.

Otherwise she only "defeated" one saiyan while fighting along two other people and taking advantage of Bujin's energy web. Anyone remember Boregoddess from pre Google youtube? She was another one of those "Zangya is an awesome character" claimants and didn't have any other reasons because she was "interesting"(ie female).

Again, the only plausible cat fight would have been Mai vs Lunch. Thematically, Buuby vs Towa would be good because of the revelations "Xenoverse" brought about the latter but we still have no reason to believe it wouldn't be a Curb-Stomp Battle (and a stretchy blob thing doesn't lend itself to fanservice anyway, even if you give it "hair").

At this point you're better off just hoping someone creates new characters, maybe even just one new character comparable to Videl/Saiyaman 2, 18 or Vados. Videl's not too powerful so it's not hard to slightly elevate some random criminal or martial artist to her level, although you'd need some reason for Gohan/saiyaman not being around if it is a criminal. 18's a little harder. She's pretty strong, so it's kind of hard to come up with something on her level she would stumble across that just so happens to look like an attractive lady and is around when none of the saiyans, Buu or Piccolo are. Vados, is the easiest. All you need is a reason for her to be around. Anything that requires she act should mop up the floor with anyone besides Whis, who has plenty of reason not to be where Vados is.

edited 17th Jul '16 10:24:00 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#41875: Jul 17th 2016 at 10:36:17 PM

I don't really see the point of asserting that Zangya can't access Super Saiyan Knock-off when everyone else in her vaguely defined group of freaky alien genotypes apparently can. I mean we could assume that Pan isn't capable of going Super Saiyan because she hasn't been seen doing it, doesn't mean she can't.

That'd just be sexist.

edited 17th Jul '16 10:36:31 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

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