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Kosjurake The Wildest of Ronins from Tokyo LOCCENT Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
The Wildest of Ronins
#41626: Jul 10th 2016 at 11:37:13 PM

Really, the power levels in super as a whole seem to have stopped making sense entirely IMO post Resurrection F.

...I was typing up this big post about all that in detail but honestly, I don't think it matters. Power levels make even less sense now in super then they ever did in Z. Even though we're no longer even using numbers. A lot of this from what I can tell is a combination of Beerus needing to still be more powerful then Goku without any indication of Beerus actually increasing in power, and enemies still needing to be a challenge to Goku and Vegeta even if it makes no god damn sense at this point that anyone short of Beerus or Whis equivalents should even be a threat to them.

So I suppose I just have to accept this nonsensicalness if I want to keep watching Super. -shrug-

But seriously its baffling that Goku didn't just smack Future Trunks around in his base form during their spar, given we have proof that Vegeta and Goku are capable of smacking SS 3 Gotenks around in base form. At least I'm pretty sure they did that during the evil pink goo clone arc. Might be misremembering, but I don't think I am.

Click Click Boom Boom
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#41627: Jul 10th 2016 at 11:49:10 PM

So Future Trunks could one-shot Ultimate Gohan as a Super Saiyan 1. So what?

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#41628: Jul 10th 2016 at 11:52:36 PM

According to a recent interview, Humans and Namekians will also have "transformations" just as powerful as the other 3 races' awaken transformations (SSJ3, Golden, Pure), but they don't alter the CAC's appearance, just auras and stats. There goes Red-Eye and Max Power...

Also, there's 3 times as much CAC options, and you can import what you've got from the first game.

Last but not least, once you finish the game's story mode, the game will let your CAC alter history themselves... somehow.

Kosjurake The Wildest of Ronins from Tokyo LOCCENT Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
The Wildest of Ronins
#41629: Jul 11th 2016 at 12:12:37 AM

[up][up] It's certainly not the end of the world from a narrative perspective, but it just bugs the hell out of me because future trunks hasn't had the same access to training or power up options the main timeline cast has had. Or the numerous events or what not that drive them to train even harder. So it seems baffling that he's somehow on par with them.

Click Click Boom Boom
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#41630: Jul 11th 2016 at 12:37:14 AM

Gohan being depowered, I really don't know how I feel about that. I don't know why he had lose his doesn't transform anymore and is so strong gimmick, and I know if I defend the scene I will anger pope Saiga but

I like it, the whole sequence. Gohan's been slacking off but is still far beyond Krillen and Tien(and Jaco). And Jaco's there, and he's kicking ass(less than Gohan but there is someone else in the universe capable of smacking down PTO mutants! Maybe we'll get to see some of Jiya in the future? The red guy just knocked down Piccolo! This confirms what Abo and Kado established, that the mutants can raise their power levels similar to the saiyans. But Piccolo's back up! They're deadlocked and Gohan takes him down just like that. Not even the mighty Piccolo is close to him, even after he's been slacking off.

Still, Super Saiyan Gohan knows there's no use approaching Freeza. What's the point, you took his powers away? I'm not sure how I feel about losing the Kai power up but the point is clear. Gohan is still stronger than any android barring Cell, all of whom were stronger than Final Form 100% Freeza. Now Freeza, in just his base form, is clearly more powerful than Dabura. Its good for Freezer, because he's the villain from before the Androids. It still illustrates how much stronger he's gotten.

And in turn illustrates how strong the post god Saiyans are when he struggles to keep up with them even in his true form.

Dragon Ball Super fucks most of this up. One, that it redoes "Revival Of F at all. Redoing "Battle Of Gods" at least let them retcon out that whole "Goku pushed Beerus to use 70% of his power" bit. It wasn't really a necessary retcon but if you're going to have Goku keep getting stronger while staying behind Beerus it is an option to take. The most significant plot alteration redoing "Revival Of F was...Goku gets his ass kicked worse by Freezer but still beats him down in the same manner anyway...?

The scene with Freeza torturing Gohan? Padding. The movie made its point much quicker. Freeza killing Piccolo? Why? To motivate Gohan? Stuffed in the Fridge? Really? Freeza proves he's still a monster by destroying Earth? Whis gives us another demonstrations of just how powerful he really is by undoing it. It had enough impact already.

Look, you could have as easily established Beerus as having universe destroying potential by

A)explaining that he only went up to 70% when throwing the huge sun like death ball that he was oh so sure Goku would be unable to stop and had been no higher than 20% the whole time prior

B)revealing that Goku has come really close to closing the gap between them only for Beerus to just whip out his own Super Mode(still an option but bear with me)

C)reveal that since waking up Beerus has gone back to training, out of habit, isn't taking it very seriously, and is still making frighteningly huge power gains, to the point where he was just that guy who destroyed a galaxy cluster to prove a point to the Kais and is now a threat to all life and after life no matter where he may be. This means you may have to move his "fight" with Champa from a flash back to a more recent event but who cares? It can still lead to the universe 7 vs 6 tournament and super saiyan blue kaioken will keep its dramatic effect.

Clearly I'm not saying redoing "Battle Of Gods" was a good idea, but I acknowledge it had some narrative significance, however slight. Redoing "Revival Of F" on the other hand did nothing but pad for time and insert a lot of drama where it did not need to be.

Gohan could still find motivation to train simply because he felt embarrassed to be in front of everyone in a track suit, or because he suffered a near death experience. He didn't need trauma of losing a best friend and mentor again on top of that. And since Gohan improved so much more in the time chamber and continues to be so much more powerful after slacking off than Piccolo, who has at least kept up with his weight training, it should have been Piccolo going to Gohan for training when he sees Gohan has gotten serious about it again. No effects to the next arc.

But Gohan serving as the worf to Freeza still served a purpose. Maybe it could have been done better, but it had one, even if Super did pointlessly drag it out.

Buldogue's lawyer
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#41631: Jul 11th 2016 at 12:45:53 AM

I always did like the theory that Beerus had shit stamina because, despite his power, his muscles had actually atrophied from lack of training and from lazing about too much and that he was actually in terrible shape.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#41632: Jul 11th 2016 at 7:24:03 AM

Beerus, despite his laziness, is extremely well trained, as seen when he can take out fighters with just using pressure points and minimum energy. He won't have the same failings as Frieza who gained a lot of power and sat on it to the point that he had no endurance.

Also, I don't know why people are hung up on power levels when numbers were only used for two sagas out of the entire series, and they were stupid to begin with. I mean, Goku went from weaker than 18,000 Vegeta to having a power level of 3 million by the time he fought Frieza, in just six freaking days. Piccolo went from being weaker than third form Frieza to beating up Android 20 who's stronger than Final Form Frieza at full power.

With Piccolo, he stood no chance against Frost and only did as well as he did because Frost got the shit kicked out of him by Goku and he underestimated Piccolo, something Piccolo himself lampshade.

As for the Goku vs. Future Trunks, Goku literally did nothing but block and catch Trunks' fists before going Super Saiyan 3 and flattening him. As for why he didn't do that in his base form, Goku says from the start that he wants to see how his power compared to Black. Meaning, he was going to use more power than necessary so see how Black compared to it and Super Saiyan 3 is Goku's second strongest form, since Trunks can't sense god energy.

It's like context is lost around the Dragon Ball fandom.

Bolded1 Fate, guide me from behind you!!!!!!!! Since: Mar, 2015
Fate, guide me
#41633: Jul 11th 2016 at 7:28:57 AM

There's a reason Toriyama dropped them, lol.

Like, it's easy to say "X is stronger than Y, who stomped Z, who was equal to C, so X is stronger than C.", no need to go all mathematics.

Nautolan picture belongs to Bonesmarinated on twitter
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#41634: Jul 11th 2016 at 8:10:33 AM

Power levels are pretty linear

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#41635: Jul 11th 2016 at 8:18:20 AM

I've found that almost all problems people have with Power Levels are Mis-blamed and are actually problems with Power Creep.

edited 11th Jul '16 8:19:50 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#41637: Jul 11th 2016 at 8:28:56 AM

@ Indirect I'll freely agree that the movie handled the scene much better than Super did, but I disagree that the worfing was necessary.

We'd already seen Goku go well beyond the level of Ultimate Gohan in the previous movie, so Resurrection F didn't really establish anything new by worfing Gohan. Hell, that movie left people wondering if Goku was even as strong as he was in Battle of Gods! So it's not a very useful scene at all.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#41638: Jul 11th 2016 at 8:49:20 AM

Super Saiyan 3 would be third strongest, right? Super Saiyan God is stronger, isn't it?

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#41639: Jul 11th 2016 at 12:51:08 PM

According to Toriyama, Super Saiyan God is Goku's new base form.

And do agree that it is mostly power creep people complain about. Although fans still try to assign random numbers to people.

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#41640: Jul 11th 2016 at 12:58:05 PM

Goku's Battle Power as of the current episode of Super is fish.

Vegeta is kumquat.

Future Trunks is shiitake mushroom.

Beerus is trapezoid.

Whis is Whis.

Vados is Vados.

And Zeno-sama, or whatever he's called, is

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#41641: Jul 11th 2016 at 1:12:22 PM

Whis is Rhombus.

Vados is a Square.

God of Everything is a Circle.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#41642: Jul 11th 2016 at 1:13:26 PM

Lord Zeno is a tesseract.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#41643: Jul 11th 2016 at 1:25:52 PM

[up]X5

You're right. It's not the Power Levels that are the problem (there are ways to hide it, like raising and lowering your power, and transformations, or just being a God like Beerus). They were never actually relevant.

It's the power creep. If you don't have a high enough Ki, you're completely shit out of luck, and the level got way too high after a while. It doesn't help that the gap between completely out of your league and actually has a chance can be pretty small.

Simply put, the characters got too strong. Honestly, Toriyama should have set a ceiling for how strong people could get, and then do what he does best: come up with ways to subvert that.

I had more to say, but I felt like a broken record so I'll just stop here.

edited 11th Jul '16 1:26:17 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#41644: Jul 11th 2016 at 2:12:26 PM

Oh please, the ever increasing power levels were always a part of the series, it's way too late to complain about that now, there was plenty occasions to get out of this ride.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#41645: Jul 11th 2016 at 2:25:27 PM

Fair enough. I've fully admitted that a lot of my complaints about Dragon Ball have been about the series not being what I wanted it to be, as opposed to how it could really be better.

New topic:

Of all the opponents Goku has fought, which ones have come the closest to killing him?

Excluding Cell and Piccolo(Jr), both of whom actually did kill him that is.

I'm not talking about it looked like he was dead, but he had a dragon ball as a Pocket Protector type deal. I'm talking, he would have straight up died if this or that had happened'' type scenario.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#41646: Jul 11th 2016 at 2:30:38 PM

Does Frieza count? If it wasn't for Vegeta then Frieza would have killed him after he got Goku with Sorbet's laser.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#41647: Jul 11th 2016 at 2:33:23 PM

[up][up]King Piccoro would've killed him if he wasn't into torture stuff.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#41648: Jul 11th 2016 at 2:36:57 PM

Funny enough, both times he sacrificed himself out of his own volition rather than being straight up killed.

The closest? Probably Vegeta in their first fight. If Yajirobe didn't show up suddenly and Gohan didn't grow his tail back just at the right moment, it might have been the end.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#41649: Jul 11th 2016 at 3:32:20 PM

Funny enough, both times he sacrificed himself out of his own volition rather than being straight up killed.

Yeah, I noticed that little detail as well.

Pilaf. If Goku knew how to listen when people told him not to turn around, he'd have died years ago in his first adventure.

Emperor Pilaf of all characters was pretty close to killing Goku. Let that sink in. Then again, he was also a single word away from getting his wish on the dragon balls as well.

edited 11th Jul '16 3:32:32 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#41650: Jul 11th 2016 at 3:42:53 PM

Even if he had gotten his wish, he would have been doomed to screw himself over somehow. That's what happens when you're the Goldfish Poop Gang.

edited 11th Jul '16 3:43:02 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!

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