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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#39751: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:03:59 AM

We will just have to agree to disagree on Uub. I see him bring more stuff than Gohan, who is a very Superman like hero.

Also in their first fight, Goku doesn't spare Frieza for a better match. He spares him to humiliate him and tells Frieza he never wanted to see him again. He only tells Frieza to come back stronger and fight him because he was sick of Frieza attacking him with his energy disc. I have no idea where the other time he tells Frieza to come back and train outside of Resurrection 'F'.

Also, the anime of Super is the canon. The manga is a promotional.

Goku and Vegeta discovered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan through their training with Whis. Even then, Whis got Vegeta's base up to Goku's base, which is a Super Saiyan God or a Saiyan Beyond God using Heroes. So Whis' training was the key factor. If it wasn't, Goku and Vegeta wouldn't keep training under him.

It is also not pure speculation that Present Trunks is stronger than Future Trunks (at least in the Buu Saga). Present Trunks is equal or stronger than Frieza as a Super Saiyan. Future Trunks (at least in the manga) was on par with Namek Saga Goku when he was 16 or 17. So eight years old Trunks is equal or weaker than Future Trunks despite Future Trunks having eight years on him.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#39752: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:04:29 AM

@Saiga: You're stretching a bit. Base Goku being even with Copy Vegeta, who beat SS3 Gotenks is the most concrete evidence we've had so far regarding Goku and Vegeta's current base powers, and discarding it based on the evidence that it might as well be filler seems petty. Accept it: Goku and Vegeta are around Ultimate Gohan in base now, which means that Piccolo is somewhere around Buuhan or Vegetto, which I agree is silly, but it seems to be fact.

edited 5th Jun '16 12:05:09 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39753: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:08:12 AM

I don't have to accept dick without something more substantial to back it up. Yes, the episode paints a clear picture. But I'm being skeptical of anything that we don't know the source of, instead of just clinging to it blindly.

That's not being petty at all. That's reserving judgement.

Except, we don't know that it's not from Toriyama's script.

That is a terrible argument for accepting it. We don't know it's from Toriyama's script, so I'm going to take it with a hefty dose of salt. There's no harm in doing that.

Also, the anime of Super is the canon. The manga is a promotional.

You've made this up.

It is also not pure speculation that Present Trunks is stronger than Future Trunks (at least in the Buu Saga). Present Trunks is equal or stronger than Frieza as a Super Saiyan. Future Trunks (at least in the manga) was on par with Namek Saga Goku when he was 16 or 17. So eight years old Trunks is equal or weaker than Future Trunks despite Future Trunks having eight years on him.

Whoa whoa whoa, what the hell? Have you completely missed how Super Saiyan Future Trunks trained to the point where he easily killed the Androids and Cell? Why would you compare present Trunks to an earlier version of future Trunks? The current versions of both present Trunks and Future Trunks are ambiguous in strength. Both have mastered Super Saiyan, both are stronger than the Androids, that's about all we know.

Goku and Vegeta discovered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan through their training with Whis. Even then, Whis got Vegeta's base up to Goku's base, which is a Super Saiyan God or a Saiyan Beyond God using Heroes. So Whis' training was the key factor. If it wasn't, Goku and Vegeta wouldn't keep training under him.

You keep missing the point I'm making. None of that matters, because Goku and Vegeta did not initially know how they should be training. So yeah, they wouldn't have reached God forms without knowing what they were doing. Whis taught them how to do it, but that means the knowledge is out there. And now it's with Goku and Vegeta. Goku couldn't reach Super Saiyan 1 through his training, but could train Gohan to do it.

edited 5th Jun '16 12:13:49 AM by Saiga

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#39754: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:11:30 AM

I am not sure why it is hard to believe that base form Vegeta >>>> Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Disregarding the episodes for the sake of argument, Super Saiyan 3 Goku went down in two hits from Beerus. Gohan in his Ultimate form also went down just as fast and didn't even touch Beerus. Super Saiyan God Goku can take hits from Beerus and actually gave him a decent fight, enough to make Beerus happy. Goku absorbs the power of godhood into his being, and actually fought Beerus in his base form for a time, even destroying Beerus' energy ball.

Since then, Goku trained under Whis, gotten a new form of Super Saiyan God, has overall gotten even stronger, and that is before training for another three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber.

Of course Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks will be no match for base form Vegeta who is more or less even with Goku. It's like people don't understand how powerful Goku and Vegeta have become.

Piccolo isn't as stronger as any of the Buu forms, otherwise it would have been commented on. The only reason he did well against Frost is because Frost got his ass kicked by Goku for several minutes. He could barely stand before he poisons Goku. He also held back against Piccolo, something Piccolo specifically noted. It isn't like Piccolo fought 100% Frost who was out to kill him.

Also, how did I make up that the manga is promotional for the anime. The manga is outright said to be a promotion with the anime being first. So the anime is the main product, the manga is secondary.

When I said present Trunks is stronger than Future Trunks at the same age, I mean eight years old present Trunks is stronger than eight years old Future Trunks since Future Trunks was Namek Saga Goku level at 16 or 17. And if Super follows the movie timeline, present Trunks should be around 14 years old, and he still would be equal or stronger than Future Trunks at the same age.

edited 5th Jun '16 12:20:24 AM by Ramona122003

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39755: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:21:34 AM

I am not sure why it is hard to believe that base form Vegeta >>>> Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

Because there are multiple sources to potentially draw from, a lack of solid explanation on just what the hell has happened to Goku and Vegeta, and a bunch of inconsistent feats and showings to base things from.

Base Goku can fight well with 70% Beerus in Battle of Gods, to still being inferior to him with a transformation that makes him MUCH stronger.

Both Resurrection F and the Super version of their training with Whis imply there is a vast difference between the power of base Goku and Beerus, despite base Goku's performance in Battle of Gods.

Furthermore, Super Saiyan 1 never comes up in Resurrection F, and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan's description in the script literally just calls it Super Saiyan - implying that SSGSS is not a separate form, but a new appearance (and power) for the old form. Yet in Universe 6, they are clearly distinct forms and once again there is a MASSIVE difference in power.

Then base Goku is capable of fighting evenly with final form Freeza, but needs Super Saiyan to deal with Final Form Frost. And yet, he reveals that Frost hasn't trained like Freeza and is weaker than him.

There are a lot of incongruities when you try and reconcile every version of the new material with one another. So forgive me if I'm being a little skeptical of accepting things as soon as they appear, because it seems like any time someone seems to come to an understanding a new episode comes out that contradicts the idea.

Also, how did I make up that the manga is promotional for the anime. The manga is outright said to be a promotion with the anime being first. So the anime is the main product, the manga is secondary.

No, you said the anime was canon and implied the manga was not. That's pure speculation. And nobody said the anime is "first" or "the main product". That's your own interpretation and don't force it on others.

We both know that Toriyama writes a script for both medium to adapt. Furthermore, he's said he'd like for the anime to follow Toyotarou's manga more.

When I said present Trunks is stronger than Future Trunks at the same age, I mean eight years old present Trunks is stronger than eight years old Future Trunks since Future Trunks was Namek Saga Goku level at 16 or 17. And if Super follows the movie timeline, present Trunks should be around 14 years old, and he still would be equal or stronger than Future Trunks at the same age.

That's a pointless comparison to make when we're talking about Future Trunks' potential. Yeah, when he was Trunks' age, he clearly hadn't brought out all of his potential. But he's done a lot of training since then, became many times stronger, and we have no idea how much is left in him or what strength goals he could realistically achieve.

edited 5th Jun '16 12:25:08 AM by Saiga

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#39756: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:22:33 AM

It's not hard to believe. It's pretty obvious Goku and Vegeta are literal miles ahead of anyone else.

I just wish it wasn't true.

I mean, sure, whatever, this is tradition, characters gets outclassed and then they Can't Catch Up. But it didn't HAVE to be that way.

It never had to be that way, really.

But oh god Frost. The power levels in the tournament were so screwed up. I just take it with a grain of salt and assume Goku and Vegeta were just REALLY holding back the entire time. Because they felt like it, I guess.

edited 5th Jun '16 12:24:04 AM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39757: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:27:50 AM

I mean, shit, we've seen before in Z's anime, movies and GT that power levels can get really screwy when you're dealing with anime original content.

So I'm not expecting a concrete and clear answer to "How strong are base Goku and Vegeta now?" or "How does their power/forms actually work now?" because they could potentially be all over the shop regarding those.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#39758: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:30:19 AM

I mean, all Power Level debates are obnoxious, but Super's Power Level debates are the worst. People use that Frost thing as an excuse to say that Piccolo is stronger than God Goku. Which is just...so unlikely.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39759: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:32:46 AM

Yeah. I mean, nobody ever talks about him being so much stronger and he's treated as being a worse inclusion on the team to Boo (both manga and anime) and even Gohan (in the anime).

So even if you're going to claim that the anime is the only thing to matter there are plenty of indicators that the answer isn't "everything who participates in fights from this point on is god level"

Oh yeah, it also takes Goku having completely fucked up ki where he can't even teleport or fly properly to say he'd "even lose to Piccolo right now". Piccolo is certainly being treated the same way he was in the main series: irrelevant.

edited 5th Jun '16 12:34:11 AM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#39760: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:33:49 AM

I just assume that everyone on U6's (aside from Botamo in raw power) side in the tournament was around Ultimate Gohan or higher.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39761: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:35:05 AM

Which is an approach with multiple problems as already outlined.

I mean, it's certainly possible because GT did a similar "lol suddenly everyone is high tier whatevs" but it really does not come across as though the characters are written that way.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#39762: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:41:33 AM

Piccolo was assumed to be weaker than Mr. Buu before it was revealed that he had been training with Gohan, rendering that assumption moot. It's a bit silly that he grew so much, so fast, but that's what the evidence suggests.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#39763: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:42:42 AM

Saiga, you are grasping at straws. So "Super" is based on a script... as opposesd to all other anime that are made up on the fly.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39764: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:45:29 AM

[up][up] He was treated as weaker than Boo after that point as well. Also, Gohan is not yet back at full power and was still considered a better pick.

[up] Actually, not many anime are adapted from a script by someone who is not part of the creative team. So yeah, it is opposed to other anime.

All I am doing is not deciding to pick any one piece of evidence over other potentially conflicting ones. That's not reaching, that's not grasping at straws. That's being reasonable.

I didn't say "this only happened in the anime so it's wrong". I didn't say to toss it out completely.

What I'm saying is to add it to the pile of all the other strength related showings that get churned out, and see what kind of picture it all paints together in the end. Because at any time the whole thing could change.

edited 5th Jun '16 12:47:39 AM by Saiga

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#39765: Jun 5th 2016 at 12:45:56 AM

I can't believe I'm saying this, but this is the kind of situation where I wish we actually HAD official power levels. Everything's so unclear without clear numbers or characters getting worfed.

Although I liked that the tournament introduced more strategy. In that case, numbers don't matter, because a fight can be won from more than just pure power.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39766: Jun 5th 2016 at 1:30:34 AM

We both know that Toriyama writes a script for both medium to adapt. Furthermore, he's said he'd like for the anime to follow Toyotarou's manga more.

Yes, let's make the anime more like a manga where Super Saiyan Vegeta is unable to lift over 1000 tons, even though Super Saiyan Goku could technically lift twice that amount during the Buu Saga.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39767: Jun 5th 2016 at 1:41:21 AM

No he couldn't. Goku was unable to lift 40 tonnes as a base Saiyan, meaning that 2,000 tonnes would also be too much for him as a Super Saiyan.

All we know is his base form could lift 8 tonnes, which means his Super Saiyan form can lift 400 tonnes at minimum.

So, his weight limit is somewhere between 400 - 2,000 tonnes. It's perfectly plausible that it falls short of the 1,000 tonnes that Magenta weights.

Now this is just Boo arc Goku we're talking about, however one important thing to note in the manga is that Goku never absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in his fight with Beerus. Once the form was gone, the fight was over. We don't see the events of Freeza's return, but we're just told that they obtained Super Saiyan Blue which had the power to defeat Freeza.

Come the Universe 6 arc, Vegeta's got a weight limit seemingly similar to a Boo arc Super Saiyan, Majin Boo is treated like a big asset to the team and Piccolo is treated the same way he compared to the Saiyans around the Cell Games - Boo arc. It's perfectly possible that in Toyotarou's version, Goku and Vegeta haven't had a massive upgrade without using Super Saiyan Blue.

Even if that wasn't the case, it's still a similar situation to Goku training with a battle power of 90,000 in 100x gravity and Vegeta training in 150x gravity at the start of super. That doesn't make Vegeta's strength close to 90,000 - it's just that they really aren't linear with weight and gravity feats.

edited 5th Jun '16 1:42:30 AM by Saiga

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#39768: Jun 5th 2016 at 1:58:47 AM

Dragon Ball Fusion's website updated with a bunch of new character bios and screenshots.

So far there's 29 character bios, listed by what part of the franchise the character came from and what type of fusion it is.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#39769: Jun 5th 2016 at 2:18:27 AM

"Piccolo was assumed to be weaker than Mr. Buu before it was revealed that he had been training with Gohan, rendering that assumption moot. It's a bit silly that he grew so much, so fast, but that's what the evidence suggests."

Actually even when Goku found out Gohan had been training with Piccolo, he was going to replaced Piccolo with Gohan, not replaced Mr. Buu. Even then, Goku wanted the reborn Kid Buu over Piccolo.

Really, the only reason why Piccolo well against Frost is because Frost got his ass kicked by Super Saiyan Goku for several minutes and could barely stand before he got desperate. Frost was also trying not to kill Piccolo and Piccolo sent most of the fight running and charing up his ace. Piccolo have gotten stronger, but we don't know how much.

As for Frost, keep in mind, Frieza's true form couldn't touch base form Goku. Even in Super, Frieza only hit Goku by attacking his friends. Frost third form actually hit Goku. Even if Goku was only warming up, he said the same thing about Frieza, who couldn't hit Goku. So Frost is stronger than Frieza outside of his ultimate form. And first form Frieza put holes though Super Saiyan Gohan and killed Piccolo with one well-placed Death Beam for his easy chair.

This should give you a general idea of how powerful Frost is.

And even if we go off the Super manga, Frost did better against Super Saiyan Goku and Piccolo nearly overwhelm him with brute force.

edited 5th Jun '16 2:43:59 AM by Ramona122003

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#39770: Jun 5th 2016 at 2:26:46 AM

In the manga, the Frost/Piccollo fight was a straight fight without the constant dodging.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#39771: Jun 5th 2016 at 2:37:17 AM

Far as I can tell, regarding how Frost and Freeza compare to each other:

Golden Freeza >>>>>>>> Final Form Frost >>> Assault Form Frost > 4th Form Freeza > 1st Form Frost >> 1st Form Freeza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4th Form Freeza on Namek

edited 5th Jun '16 2:38:20 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#39772: Jun 5th 2016 at 2:38:32 AM

It wasn't really a fight. Piccolo jumped, stretched his arm, Frost dodged and poisons him. It was more like a scuffled that a match, which is why the vast majority of fans, especially Piccolo's fans, hate the manga version, despite Piccolo seeming to be stronger.

Pushover Media Critic I agree with you. Golden Frieza beat up Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku. Although Goku has gotten stronger since then (he got about four years worth of training), I don't think Goku is that stronger than Golden Frieza (Kaio-Ken not included). Of course, this is all assumption.

It just shows how much of a power jump Golden Frieza was.

edited 5th Jun '16 2:42:50 AM by Ramona122003

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#39773: Jun 5th 2016 at 2:51:42 AM

Yeah, Golden Freeza must've been something like a 1,100x multiplier.

Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#39774: Jun 5th 2016 at 2:53:17 AM

Or not because we have no real measure for any gains after the Buu saga.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#39775: Jun 5th 2016 at 2:56:49 AM

Actually Saiga, according to the Super Exciting Guide, Goku's weight training was made more effective by using the Bukujutsu to float in midair as his lifted the weights, which actually made it harder for him to do. So we don't actually know how much weight Goku can actually lift, since a) we don't know if he was using ki to enhance his muscles during that or was just using his base physical strength, and b) we don't know if whatever planet he was on when he was doing that had any altered gravity to it, or if it had the same gravity as Earth.

Also, he was lifting 10 tons before it got increased to 40, so his minimum would be 500 tons.

edited 5th Jun '16 2:58:10 AM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

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