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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#39676: Jun 3rd 2016 at 9:06:30 PM

"Correct if wrong. Freeza is considered laughably evil because the original English dub gave him a raspy old lady smoker voice and had a scene where (s)he says "These balls make me feel something resembling joy. I want to carcass them." Which exposed the eighties and nineties "anime" fans for the homophobes that they were and had some little kids thinking Freezer was a girl until (s)he boasted to be the strongest man in the universe.

I've played quite a few Dragon Ball video games. I like old lady smoker Freezer."

That particularly line came from the first Ocean dub. That line does not exist in the remastered Funi dub they did for Dragon Ball Z uncut. That said, he Frieza can be laughable when he's around the Ginyu Force and when he's having his mental breakdown.

Also, Frieza's old woman voice becomes less exaggerated as Young got used to the character, especially when second form Frieza who had a very deep voice that sounds very manly. Also, even Aryes gives Frieza a somewhat female quality voice, if that makes any sense.

And I never thought Frieza was a female even with a female's voice. I thought he was supposed to be asexual since his model has several male and female characteristics.

I never saw Cell as asexual. He is very obviously based on male. Much like the Namekians are classified as asexual, but are all obviously males.

edited 3rd Jun '16 9:08:35 PM by Ramona122003

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#39677: Jun 3rd 2016 at 10:30:00 PM

Man, Blue Water dub is the GT of GT.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#39678: Jun 4th 2016 at 1:01:20 AM

I never thought we'd be talking about Cell's sexual identity. I guess this is what happens when Dragon Ball discussions go on for years.

I wonder what the Japanese does. Do they have gendered words like 'he' and 'she'? I've heard that Freeza is very definitely supposed to be a male. People say that as a response to others confused about his gender preference due to Linda Young's voice for him. I'm not sure about every other alien character.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Zeromaeus Since: May, 2010
#39679: Jun 4th 2016 at 1:03:38 AM

Yes they do. In fact, Japanese has even more gendered tells in speech given that certain words imply masculinity and others imply femininity for the person speaking.

Hobgoblin Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#39681: Jun 4th 2016 at 4:33:10 AM

Wait, that wasn't Dameon Clark in GT? I can't even tell the difference between the voices!

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#39682: Jun 4th 2016 at 5:38:31 AM

...Okay, a lot of things.

First: How the hell does Imperfect Cell look male? It doesn't even look human, much less masculine.

Semi-Perfect and Perfect might look like some conception of masculinity, but. Imperfect?

Second: Biological sex isn't actually a thing per se?

Like. Everyone has one x chromosome, right? And the Y Chromosome only actually has a gene for the testes. Just the testes.

And everyone starts off as a single cell. A "male" zygote is indistinguishable from a "female" zygote.

Now, in utero the testes form eventually and start producing hormones. Two specifically. Testosterone and Anti-Müllerian hormone.

Every embryo has the information for a full female reproductive system. Everyone's got an x chromosome. And every embryo forms the Müllerian ducts which will eventually form the uterus and ovaries. Anti-Müllerian hormone from the testes tell the "male" embryo to not make those.

Meanwhile, testosterone tells the structure that would form a clitoris to combine with the urethra and form a penis instead. And testosterone also tells what would become the vulva to fuse to form the scrotum.

Fun fact,most guys actually still have a sort of "seam" there, where the labia fused!

In a lot of people. And I'm talking like. 1.7 percent of the world's population. I mean. Like. There are more intersex people than there are Jewish people.

But anyway. Like, things aren't always so clear cut. Sometimes "female" embryos can have too much testosterone. They still can produce that in their adrenal glands. Sometimes the testosterone or Anti-Müllerian hormone in "male" embryos aren't produced, or don't do what they usually do.

There are people who are assigned women at birth who discover that they don't have a uterus and have testes, but because their bodies don't respond to testosterone, but did respond to Anti-Müllerian hormone, their testes got rid of their Müllerian ducts but didn't form a penis or scrotum so they ended up having a vagina instead. Don't usually notice until they don't menstruate during puberty. It's called "Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome".

Another interesting fact! See, some estrogen (estradiol) in "women" actually comes from testosterone produced in the ovaries! The body has mechanisms to convert testosterone that hasn't been "used" into estrogen. Some older men gain a bit more weight and might develop small breasts because they aren't making as much testosterone and their bodies aren't using the testosterone they have.

With complete androgen insensitivity syndrome. During puberty, the testes produce a lot more testosterone. But the testosterone isn't going anywhere or doing anything. So the body converts the testosterone into estrogen. So breasts.

One guy in India, he was a farmer, had two kids, was a normal guy, lived a normal life, born and raised as a man, had stomach pain one day, ended up going to the emergency room and had to have a hysterectomy.

Another guy in the UK, business man, everyone around him thought he was a normal guy, had stomach pains, thought he had cancer, actually had a fully formed female reproductive system.

Also discovered that when he would have stomach pains and blood in his urine every month, it was because he was menstruating since puberty.

It can be misinterpreted for people who are overly sensitive and get offended over anything.

Yeah, I don't think they're the problem here.

edited 4th Jun '16 6:11:31 AM by unnoun

Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#39683: Jun 4th 2016 at 5:57:12 AM

Sexual hormones are not produced in the pituitary, but on the adrenal glands (and vertebrate kidneys being repurposed gonads kinda explains that).

And the Y chromosome has some 400 genes, but, functionally, it is just an add-on (and, after all, only a single X chromosome is active per cell in XX individuals; that explains calico cats).

(And those are the sole nitpicks to have)

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#39684: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:00:54 AM

Right, I edited the adrenal glands myself because I forgot. Brain fart.

And most of those 400 genes don't really do anything important. The gene for the testes is the only one that matters, especially for the subject of this conversation.

edited 4th Jun '16 6:05:53 AM by unnoun

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39685: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:11:39 AM

[up][up][up]Have you actually looked at Imperfect Cell?

He's not even remotely androgynous. While he's not super muscular, his body is very clearly designed to look male and has the musculature of one. Just look at it. When he was a bug, you could argue it, 'cause he doesn't have any recognizable sexual characteristics either way, but just because he has a bug face doesn't mean that everything below the neck doesn't look male. Look at his torso. Maybe you can argue the narrow waist compared to his wide shoulders for androgyny, but right below that is a very noticeable crotch bulge (which leads me to believe Gero was insecure about his penis size).

He's not Astolfo. 'androgynous' people in manga look very girly.

Also, I do believe that the people who get overly offended are as much part of the problem as the discriminating assholes - mostly because they're actually hurting their own 'cause' by getting overly offended. It's the exact same problem that happens with any given extremists, they paint the public's perception of the entire 'movement'. It's the same thing that happens with all religious people being painted as nutcases thanks to the assholes that do assholish things. It's also why legitimate feminist males are painted as either white knight neckbeards wearing fedoras who are only looking for sex by being 'nice guys'.

Simply put: Extremists make everything worse and help no one. Usually, not even themselves.

edited 4th Jun '16 6:12:48 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#39686: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:17:26 AM

Cell inherited the techniques of the people making it up. Goku, a Saiyan, and Chi-Chi, a Human, are able to produce a child that is itself able to produce a child. Dragon Ball doesn't care about biology.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#39687: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:19:42 AM

While he's not super muscular, his body is very clearly designed to look male and has the musculature of one.

I'm not entirely sure I know what that even means. Like. Men and women don't actually have different musculoskeletal systems?

Maybe you can argue the narrow waist compared to his wide shoulders for androgyny, but right below that is a very noticeable crotch bulge

One that's the exact same as his mouth. And could be taken to be a vulva. Or weird cloaca.

Actually, it extends all the way behind him to where his anus would be. So definitely a weird cloaca. Male crotches don't extend that far back usually?

Also, I do believe that the people who get overly offended are as much part of the problem as the discriminating assholes - mostly because they're actually hurting their own 'cause' by getting overly offended.

See, the problem is that you would rather think people are offended unnecessarily than believe them when they tell you that you've hurt them.

edited 4th Jun '16 6:21:52 AM by unnoun

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39688: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:33:59 AM

The crotch thing is a joke. That's why I brought up Gero being insecure about the size of his penis.

No, I'm not talking about people who get offended at actual sexism. I'm not talking about people who get offended at the fact that, in the US, women make less than men. Honestly, I don't know whether that's true because I don't know what two people in the exact same position whose only difference is gender make per month. All I know is that John Oliver told me that a study had employers rating male employees higher than female employees with the exact same curriculum.

I'm talking about the people who get offended over the Angry Video Game Nerd saying he won't review the new Ghostbusters movie and calling him sexist for saying he knows he will hate it because it's a reboot.

I'm not talking about people who have a point. I'm talking about the idiots who just want attention.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#39689: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:36:17 AM

And you would place reactions towards yourself displaying callous disregard if not contempt for hundreds of thousands if not millions of trans people in which category, exactly?

edited 4th Jun '16 6:37:31 AM by unnoun

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39690: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:39:20 AM

I'm not displaying callous disregard for millions of people. I'm displaying callous disregard for 7 billion. 'Cause my indifferent apathy extends to every single human being that is not me.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
nomuru2d Gamer-turning-maker from Port Saint Lucie, FL Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Longing for Dulcinea
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#39692: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:43:20 AM

[up][up]Unfortunately, your apathy doesn't actually impact all 7 billion of those people equally, because of the difference in their circumstances.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39693: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:44:16 AM

My indifference and apathy impact all of 0 people, though. 'cuz, you know, it's not like I'd be an activist if I cared. I'm also lazy.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39694: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:54:33 AM

Either way, everyone insisted on referring to Cell with an 'it' in the manga.

This is a product of Viz's translation. There is nothing in the Japanese to indicate that Cell would be referred to as "it".

Yes they do. In fact, Japanese has even more gendered tells in speech given that certain words imply masculinity and others imply femininity for the person speaking.

That's wasn't the question, which was whether they had gendered terms like "he" or "she". Which Japanese doesn't. Furthermore, as you mentioned the gendered tells only imply, and only for the speaker. But their usage is also influenced by region, social standing, etc so you'll have female speakers use masculine pronouns in some situations and vice versa.

In fiction, it's especially meaningless because authors can give their characters pronouns that would not normally be expected for that character.


Even if it is, even Toriyama is using it as an excuse. Like, there was that recent interview when he said that when he was writing the Great Saiyaman portions, he realised Gohan would rather study than fight. If that's true, it's been a part of his character for years now, and it was definitely intentional.

Flanderization is a thing, you know. And "years" is stretching it, because most of that time period has been spent without any material to show what happened to him after the manga. Since the revival in 2013, we've had two movies and one new story arc... and only one of those used the "not training" bit.

But I'd agree that it's intentional - it's a very easy way to keep him on the sidelines without developing his character at all.

And I've got to admit, if that whole idea of his unwillingness to fight was never going to be brought up after the Cell Saga, his character would have become really boring to me. What would make him stand out from Goku? Just that he's not as much of a Blood Knight?

And this is what I mean by lack of imagination. There are more personality traits than "unwillingness to fight" and "Goku".

For starters, to say he has an unwillingness to fight is inaccurate - as Tobias also covered. It's not that he had a character trait that was abandoned by the story, it's that he was being naive in trying to make Cell back down. Because that didn't work, he learned from his naivety and didn't attempt that again.

Now, being more specific on what can make him stand out from Goku: There are so many things! For starters, he can still not enjoy fighting or training just for the sake of seeing how strong he can get. There are multiple other motivations someone can have to be a fighter, and that would be the big one for differentiating the two.

Goku is a well meaning, but ultimately selfish fighter who is motivated by strength. He wants to be as strong as he can be, for its own sake, and wants to fight strong opponents to constantly test himself. His actions revolve around filling that desire first and foremost, even though he cares for his friends, he will still endanger himself, his friends, and the universe to satisfy his battle lust. He fights to continue fighting.

Gohan is not that person. While he also takes pride in his power, and is eager to prove himself in friendly competition, he sees no sport in high stakes battles. He wants to be strong, so that his strength can be used to protect his family, friends, and total strangers. When faced with the possibility of an incredibly powerful enemy being released (Majin Boo), he tried to destroy the egg. He fights to end the fighting.

This makes Gohan a more traditional hero, in contrast to Goku not fitting that mold at all. Which I think helps both their characters as Gohan could serve to contrast Goku, and highlight what makes Goku so unique.

This is also why I think Gohan succeeding Goku permanently would have been the best move. Especially given the timing, where the Android arc only got started because Goku and Vegeta wanted it to. Goku kind of touches on this in the manga by calling Gohan more responsible, but his explanation for staying bed would work much better if he blamed it on his actions rather than simply his presence. Gohan would be better suited to be defender of the Earth because he actually cares about defending the Earth. Not that Goku is completely uncaring, but... he'd rather risk the Earth than pass up the opportunity for a good fight.

Then you've got someone like Future Trunks, who isn't a pure Saiyan and doesn't share their sense of pride. He kills Freeza before he's powered up and without prolonging the fight, he tries to prevent Cell from transforming (even going as far as to attack Vegeta or Cell mid-transformation), he's even willing to use the shut down remote on the Androids rather than fight them directly. He's shown far less interest in fighting than Gohan, but that never stopped him from being an active fighter!

Goku's a Saiyan through and through, like Vegeta, and he will make things worse for the sake of pride or entertainment. The best successor would be someone who isn't going to have any of that shit. Gohan's got all the power of a Saiyan (and then some) but with the priorities of an Earthling. It would be very appropriate to write him with a more pragmatic approach like Trunks', looking to end fights swiftly because he gets no enjoyment from them. It would add a lot of meaning to his exchange with Evil Boo. "Fight you? No. I want to kill you"

Anyway, my thoughts were all a bit scattered but yeah... Gohan doesn't need to actively avoid battle to be distinct from Goku. Fact is, even right now Gohan isn't avoiding battle. But he's just been stuck in the same role of being defeated to establish an enemy's power... which has lost all meaning through being overused and repetitive. The argument that "Gohan isn't a fighter" falls apart completely when that's the only thing the new material uses him for.

The closest thing we had to some actual development for Gohan was in Super's anime only content, showing how Gohan can still be a family man and elect to train, because he becomes motivated by wanting to protect his family from the next threat. Unfortunately, with the Super anime following Toriyama's script, there will probably be no pay-off for this at all.

Gohan's issue was unwillingness to fight in the Cell arc but since then, his issue has been unwillingness to train.

Which is because it's not his passion. Gohan's the guy who knows he probably should get in shape and maybe will spend a few weeks in the gym but then he misses a day because he had a hard day at work and just wanted to spend it reading and then a week later he misses three and he's like, "I shouldn't miss any more days," but it isn't long before he just quits entirely because he has better things to be doing.

I don't think this is quite accurate either. Gohan didn't display an actual aversion to training, but it is true that he wouldn't train unless he expected that he would need it. That's why, after defeating Cell, he stopped training. He believed the peace would last, and at that stage it was a believable idea - he's only been in three major conflicts, and two of those he had forewarning for! But the series treats his lack of training as a lapse in judgement rather than a character aspect. He regrets his lack of training, and has seen what consequences arise from it.

The more material that is set after Boo's death, the more illogical it would be that Gohan doesn't resume training. It's no longer at the point where he should expect peace to last, and he's already seen the consequences of doing so. The idea that he perpetually doesn't train only came up in post-manga adaptations, which typically recycle plot points of the original story anyway. Resurrection F is the only thing Toriyama has worked on since the manga to suggest he lapsed in training again, which makes the attachment to that idea as the only way to interpret Gohan kind of silly to me. Even GT didn't go for that.

edited 4th Jun '16 7:01:13 AM by Saiga

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39695: Jun 4th 2016 at 6:59:20 AM

Gohan might not be unwilling to fight, but he would prefer to go his entire life without throwing a single punch. He's also very naive.

Not a good combination for a hero, since that resulted in him not training for seven years, and then not training again after Majin Buu. It seems he only recently learned the lesson that there's always someone stronger out there, even if it doesn't make any sense for there to be anyone stronger out there.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39696: Jun 4th 2016 at 7:03:36 AM

He's not really that naive. He will be the first one to throw a punch if he thinks it's necessary.

Not training was absolutely a mistake, but he acknowledges as such. Any hero can learn from their mistakes, and grow. The fact that Resurrection F has him not do so in order for him to be kept on the sidelines is something I'm criticizing.

Though, since the whole "not training" thing is for the purpose of keeping him on the sidelines, it's not a trait that would be a continuous problem if he was the hero anyway.

edited 4th Jun '16 7:03:57 AM by Saiga

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#39697: Jun 4th 2016 at 7:04:59 AM

[up][up][up]

[tup] To al of this. I now see why you are the pope Saiga.

[up][up] This as well.

It all goes along with my own post about how Gohan needs a threat in front of him (a real goal) to actually train.

edited 4th Jun '16 7:05:13 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#39698: Jun 4th 2016 at 7:06:57 AM

I still don't agree with that idea. If "in X years, an enemy will appear" is a sufficient motivator, then the pattern in enemies repeatedly showing up without warning should be as well.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#39699: Jun 4th 2016 at 7:13:52 AM

It's also not the only time a character in Resurrection F had a flaw invented so that the movie's dumb choices could 'work'.

I agree that it was bullshit, for what it matters.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ikedatakeshi Baby dango from singapore Since: Nov, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Baby dango
#39700: Jun 4th 2016 at 7:19:49 AM

The fact that Goku is leagues above him gives him less reason to train. Even if Goku can't be trusted to treat Earth as a priority, to catch up would take a long period of time away from work, which Gohan actually cares about. Plus, Goku is currently weaker only to literal gods, who also can be bribed by food. If nothing concrete shows up that actually requires it, there is no real reason he needs to try and catch up to them.


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