TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#38926: May 16th 2016 at 9:06:08 PM

Yeah I mean that way he didn't have to worry about himself rebelling.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38927: May 16th 2016 at 9:07:39 PM

The 16 backstory is a retcon that screwed up the original story.

Originally, 16 was a failure. The stuff about being programmed to be peaceful is pure nonsense, Gero put a fucking self destruct button in him.

So that's why he moved on to 17 and 18. The stronger models are harder to control, so he made them progressively weaker until he scrapped the infinite energy model and created his first success: 19.

After finally achieving success, he created his own body based on that model.

Cell not having a shutdown of his own is pretty easily explained: Gero never planned to get killed by his Androids.tongue Cell was purely biological anyway, unlike the remote.

[up] he is literally a brain operating a machine. He needs to be able to control it.

edited 16th May '16 9:08:36 PM by Saiga

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#38928: May 16th 2016 at 9:13:29 PM

I still like the 16 story, though. I like it when villains get humanizing moments, especially ones like Gero who don't have much else going for them.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#38929: May 16th 2016 at 9:18:11 PM

I'm pretty sure 17 and 18 were capable of moving their bodies without their limbs rebelling against them.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38930: May 16th 2016 at 9:18:55 PM

Stupid retcons are stupid.

There's your explanation.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38931: May 16th 2016 at 9:21:05 PM

It's less a retcon, and more that Toriyama just forgot his story again after 20+ years.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38932: May 16th 2016 at 9:23:08 PM

There's a shock.

I know Saiga's gonna say Toriyama isn't that forgetful! It's just a rumour, and I know as the Pope he knows what he's talking about, but to be frank, I have doubts about how well Toriyama really remembers his story.

There's also the fact that I'm pretty sure he'd change things as he pleases to tell the story he wants anyway.

One Strip! One Strip!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#38933: May 16th 2016 at 9:25:57 PM

I mean, it's not like there are any HINTS at the 16 backstory in the original. All we know about 16 is what Gero told us. You could say he was lying, or something. That's a stupid way of changing the story, I know, but you could still do that.

The only thing that bugs me about 16 is that Gero seemed to be afraid of reactivating him. I mean, why would he be scared of a creation who chooses not to fight?

edited 16th May '16 9:26:34 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#38934: May 16th 2016 at 9:29:06 PM

Maybe Gero likes to poison pigeons in the park.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38935: May 16th 2016 at 9:30:13 PM

[up]

What does that have to do with anything?

I mean, yeah, maybe he does. Wouldn't surprise me since he's a dick, but it's kinda irrelevant.

One Strip! One Strip!
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38936: May 16th 2016 at 9:32:20 PM

[up]x4 17 and 18 are using their bodies. Gero replaced his.

Gero chose energy absorption over infinite energy for his robot body because he could control it better. Upgrading his original body wasn't presented as an option.

[up]x5

I would like the 16 story if it wasn't so goddamn nonsensical. I get what it's going for but it just falls flat on its face with the retcons and poor explanation.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#38937: May 16th 2016 at 9:33:48 PM

^^ Because one of 16's only personality traits is loving birds. He'd stop Gero!

^ Do we know when he roboticized himself though? The number 20 implies that it was after he made 17 and 18.

edited 16th May '16 9:36:26 PM by Arha

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38938: May 16th 2016 at 9:36:12 PM

[up][up] You say that as if 16 had much of a backstory to begin with.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38939: May 16th 2016 at 9:40:21 PM

Because one of 16's only personality traits is loving birds. He'd stop Gero!

...

Ok, that managed to make some sort of sense. You're off the hook this time Arha.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#38940: May 16th 2016 at 9:41:41 PM

Now I'm just wondering what the original name for Gero's son was. Headcanon is that he was bad at names, and just named him Gero Jr.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#38941: May 16th 2016 at 9:44:02 PM

His name was actually Android Sixteen. The replacement was actually the twenty first android made, but out of sentimentality Gero named him after his son.

^^ Also I was referencing an old comedy song because apparently I am feeling chatty today or something?

edited 16th May '16 9:44:34 PM by Arha

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#38942: May 17th 2016 at 4:23:09 AM

Sorry to go back to this old topic but I'm sorta curious why Chichi never tried to learn how to fly or sense energy or teleport.

Why nobody would teach her makes sense, but. It seems like something that would be in her interests to learn and. It's weird that she never expresses any interest in it.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#38943: May 17th 2016 at 4:28:18 AM

Because that's not what housewives do.

I mean, Chi-Chi knows how to fight, but the only ever sign we get that she actually enjoys it is that she trained Goten, I guess. Like, she entered the tournament seemingly just so she could meet Goku and try to marry him.

After that, it seemed like she was perfectly content with just staying at home and being a housewife.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#38944: May 17th 2016 at 4:47:17 AM

But flying and sensing energy and teleporting are all things she could do to keep track of her family that can fly, sense energy and teleport!

Being able to keep track of and go to them at all times would be relevant to her interests!

I mean.

Heck, asking Goku to teach her Instant Transmission would have made more sense than making him learn how to drive.

Not that I would take away Goku learning how to drive. For anything.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#38946: May 17th 2016 at 5:52:29 AM

I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a character that isn't dumb.

Even the super-geniuses. We've established Gero's idiocy.

Like. Bulma probably could have gathered the dragon balls to kill Gero on her own even when the others said no. They would have been disappointed but the only one that might have hurt her over it was Vegeta, and the others would have stopped him and protected her because they like her.

LordofLore Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Consider his love an honor
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38948: May 17th 2016 at 6:24:49 AM

Establishing Gero's idiocy came about from misunderstanding and making complete assumptions, though.

Do we know when he roboticized himself though? The number 20 implies that it was after he made 17 and 18.

Yes, it was after that. I'm not saying he didn't have the technology to enhance his human body, but I think it's a big assumption that his body would be fit for the same treatment when he went and abandoned it to begin with.

The only thing that bugs me about 16 is that Gero seemed to be afraid of reactivating him. I mean, why would he be scared of a creation who chooses not to fight?

Because 16 only chooses not to fight people who aren't evil or Goku. He'd just straight up kill Gero, like he intended with Cell. Which is also part of why the retcon makes no sense.

I mean, it's not like there are any HINTS at the 16 backstory in the original. All we know about 16 is what Gero told us. You could say he was lying, or something. That's a stupid way of changing the story, I know, but you could still do that.

It's not about existing backstory. 16's new backstory contradicted the main story of the manga, and quite obviously.

And no, there's more than just Gero's word - we have the title pages explain the process behind the Android's creation (including the real reason for their power), and Bulma backs up that there was a self-destruct bomb installed in him.

Aside from the direct contradictions, the backstory just creates a bunch of holes because it makes Gero's motivations nonsensical. The bomb wouldn't make sense in that case, neither would his supposed fear of 16 or why he'd choose to lie about it. Then the claims that he made 16 peaceful and powerful out of love for his fallen son don't humanize him - they make him look fucking idiotic. If he were able to control the Androids' personalities and power so well, he should have done that for all of them. And he shouldn't give a personality to an Android that was going to make things worse for his plans.

That tidbit feels like Toriyama tried to fill a plot hole that wasn't already present. In doing so, he just opened up a bunch of new plot holes.

Like. Bulma probably could have gathered the dragon balls to kill Gero on her own even when the others said no. They would have been disappointed but the only one that might have hurt her over it was Vegeta, and the others would have stopped him and protected her because they like her.

I don't think that's her being dumb but that she figured if they were going to take the stupid path they should deal with it themselves. Mostly her being selfish as usual (although I guess, still dumb because the Androids pose a threat to her if the others fail, but in a way that's more in-line with her character).

Also, Vegeta would probably manage to kill her in that case. Goku's not proactive enough to realize "Bulma did something that will upset Vegeta, I should intervene". And Vegeta doesn't need much room to kill her if he was going to make good on his threat.

edited 17th May '16 6:29:57 AM by Saiga

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#38949: May 17th 2016 at 6:27:56 AM

...How does Goku know what Android 18 looks like in the Buu Saga.

He wasn't there when she was activated because he was dying.

He wasn't there when she got to Kame House because he already left to the Time Chamber.

She wasn't there when he rescued Tien and Piccolo because she and 16 were hiding.

I guess he could have seen her when Cell spat her up, but. She was covered in vomit and spit and I guess I assumed he was paying more attention to the fight. How Gohan wasn't finishing Cell.

Also she was face-down. And Goku's not the best at recognizing faces anyway.

I guess her haircut was the same, but. Lots of people could have that haircut?

So.

How does Goku know Android 18 is Android 18?

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#38950: May 17th 2016 at 6:31:18 AM

I'm going to guess the Cell Games bit. Goku wasn't subject to the same discretion shot we got when Cell did the actual upchucking, so there's a good chance he did see her face.

That, or it was from reading the others' minds since he was doing that.


Total posts: 130,800
Top