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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38026: Apr 22nd 2016 at 9:18:01 AM

Which is also more consistent with his character. He's been outclassed since Piccolo Daimao had him killed offscreen. Despite this, he showed up to fight the Saiyans. He went to Namek and fought the Ginyu Force and Frieza. He took the detonator to the island where Cell was trying to absorb Android 18. He even flied out to Babidi's Spaceship with Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, and Piccolo.

He's been afraid on multiple occasions as a consequence of the fact that he keeps getting involved with foes that can obliterate him with a thought, but he's always been there and he's always at least tried. Krillin has never been the character to say, "No, I can't do this, I'm not strong enough, someone else take over."

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#38027: Apr 22nd 2016 at 9:23:21 AM

Roshi did note in earlyish Dragonball that he was training in secret to try to keep up with the others. So presumably he actually just kept at it even though he decided it would be okay if Tien or Goku won the tournament.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38028: Apr 22nd 2016 at 10:12:18 AM

Why would he? His reason for training was to compete in the Tenkaichi Budokai against Goku and Krillin. After they stopped attending, what reason would he have to keep at it? He wouldn't do it just to keep up and help defend the Earth because he never participates in that outside of Piccolo Daimao.

Even when he fought the Red Ribbon Army, he only did it because they arrived on his doorstep, and was only willing to do it a second time because Goku was going to their headquarters and he wanted to stop Goku from getting himself killed.

He doesn't fight Raditz. He doesn't fight the Saiyans. He doesn't go to Namek. He doesn't show up when Frieza lands. He doesn't fight the Androids or Cell. He doesn't compete in the 24th, 24.5thHey  or 25th Tenkaichi Budokai. He doesn't get involved with Buu.

Kame-sennin was a great mentor to Goku, Krillin, Yamcha, and Tien but he was retired when Goku met him and he went right back into retirement after Piccolo Daimao was defeated.

edited 22nd Apr '16 10:17:15 AM by TobiasDrake

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#38029: Apr 22nd 2016 at 10:16:28 AM

He didn't need to train since he was the strongest man in the world so far as he knew, but then his students made him want to train again. There's no reason he had to stop. You might as well ask why Tien keeps training even though he hasn't really mattered since Nappa at best, and that's being generous.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38030: Apr 22nd 2016 at 10:23:51 AM

He didn't need to train because he didn't care about anything that would require him to be a formidable warrior. He was an old man living alone on an island putting obscure magic artifacts indicative of a lifetime of adventure to mundane uses.

Tien has every reason to train because it's his hobby. Like Goku, it's what he's passionate about. Being a martial artist is literally his entire identity, so he keeps at it regardless of the fact that he'll never be the best. It's all he is.

Kame-sennin doesn't need "powerful martial artist" to be his identity. It hasn't been his identity in a very long time. He is a wise old master, but it's not what defines him. It's a character trait, but was only a motivation until his pupils could stand on their own; even then, he didn't even want to train Goku and Krillin in the first place.

edited 22nd Apr '16 10:24:36 AM by TobiasDrake

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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#38031: Apr 22nd 2016 at 10:29:36 AM

Stuff about episodes 42-45 came out.

  • 42: Finally, the confrontation with Monaka!?
  • 43: Having a hard time taking care of Pan - AKA the episode Arale's appearing in.
  • 44: The Secret of the Sacred Water - Ya know, the stuff Korin has in the back.
  • 45: The Wonder of Copy-Vegeta - What the hell is happening in this episode!?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38032: Apr 22nd 2016 at 10:32:04 AM

At this point, Kame-sennin is basically Goku and Krillin's dad more than he is a wise old master. They respect him and Krillin crashes on his couch when he needs a place to stay, but he's retired, they're adults now, and everyone has their own life to lead.

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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#38033: Apr 22nd 2016 at 10:39:32 AM

So he can't train in martial arts simply because he wants to do it? If he had no interest in martial arts he never would have become a man who could teach Krillin and Goku to begin with. It's not like he's as serious about it as Tien either. I do think it's pointless to include him, but I don't see why it would necessarily be out of character.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#38034: Apr 22nd 2016 at 10:52:39 AM

Master Roshi's inclusion basically means there's no reason to exclude Yamcha and Chiaotzu for being too weak.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38035: Apr 22nd 2016 at 10:52:42 AM

Enough to significantly impact his battle power to the extent that saying, "The Frieza Soldiers can't even handle Kame-sennin" would not be considered a huge mark against their ability? No, he can't. That's not doing it every once in a while to remember his glory days. That is actively power-training to catch up to the others and we've never been given any indication that Kame-sennin has any desire to do that.

The idea that he's been secretly training and keeping up with the likes of Tien and Krillin for the last 15 years is an Ass Pull.

[up] Exactly that. I know we all shit on Yamcha because Chiaotzu is so weak as to basically be irrelevant, but Chiaotzu clocked in at 610 when Nappa and Vegeta landed, which is 4.4x more powerful than Kame-sennin's 139. After being trained by God, Chiaotzu could fight circles around Kame-sennin.

And he's been consistently training with Tien ever since. Kame-sennin, on the other hand, has has spent his time watching aerobics videos for the erotic poses involved.

edited 22nd Apr '16 11:00:01 AM by TobiasDrake

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Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#38036: Apr 22nd 2016 at 10:59:39 AM

To be fair, Roshi had the poorest showing in that fight. If it had gone on any longer, he would have been in a lot of trouble.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38037: Apr 22nd 2016 at 11:03:42 AM

True. He definitely wouldn't be able to handle all of them at once. But he was easily subduing individual grunts, which is where I got my Red Ribbon comparison.

edited 22nd Apr '16 11:04:17 AM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38038: Apr 22nd 2016 at 11:49:54 AM

Um....

What if he kept training for the possibility of other people coming to train with him?

Guys like Hercule / Mr. Satan who can still get a lot stronger and all that.

But yeah, that's the big thing: Roshi can't be there if Yamcha and Chiaotzu aren't. Since Toriyama wrote the script, he actively decided he didn't want Yamcha there, which is a dick move.

Now that I've said that, I should point out that the fight against Raditz was initially going to be Goku, Krillin and Roshi, before Piccolo subbed in, and I think that if they'd gotten there in time, they'd have tried to help in the fight as well. They just didn't arrive in time.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38039: Apr 22nd 2016 at 11:53:56 AM

That's pretty much what it boils down to. I can understand Chiaotzu being snubbed because he's basically a fashion accessory for Tien at this point, but saying that Yamcha is too weak for foes that Kame-sennin is making short work of is taking the Yamcha-bashing too far.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38040: Apr 22nd 2016 at 12:00:00 PM

What's worse, it's making it an in-universe thing. I thought it was mostly the West that ripped on Yamcha (Japan has the death pose, but that's about it), but now they are actively snubbing him over a much weaker character.

I mean, other Mangaka have their favourites, and don't always use the characters they do have to their fullest, but I feel like they don't actively snub their characters and toss them under the bus the way Toriyama does.

But maybe that's because he doesn't really plan out proper arcs for them all the time.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#38041: Apr 22nd 2016 at 12:16:31 PM

I want Yamcha and Ox-King to save the day by being the best cooks in the universe.

Toriyama says they are, and I want to see them actually do something with that.

Between the Saiyans, Majin Buu and Beerus, there's a rather large percentage of planetary and cosmic threats that could be overcome by cooking good enough food for them.

edited 22nd Apr '16 12:17:51 PM by unnoun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#38042: Apr 22nd 2016 at 12:19:55 PM

The way to a planet-killing alien horror's heart is through his stomach.

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38043: Apr 22nd 2016 at 12:41:06 PM

Well yeah. The stomach's all soft, so if you punch through there, you can avoid the ribs. After that, you just gotta reach up and...

~Ducks a brick~

.....Oh. Not what you meant. My bad.

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Monsund Since: Jan, 2001
#38044: Apr 22nd 2016 at 2:30:31 PM

Its also not a very intelligent move to appeal to fans, as Yamcha and 18 are both popular characters in Japan.

Both are more popular then Tenshinhan, and particularly Jaco.

edited 22nd Apr '16 2:30:40 PM by Monsund

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#38045: Apr 22nd 2016 at 2:36:30 PM

So wait, Monaka isn't a wuss?

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#38046: Apr 22nd 2016 at 2:47:34 PM

What you really have to ask is not why Yamcha isn't fighting the mooks, but why Gohan didn't insta-kill all of them in under a second.

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randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#38047: Apr 22nd 2016 at 2:51:26 PM

It just didn't seem as important at the time.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#38048: Apr 22nd 2016 at 2:54:26 PM

Does Gohan know how to do that? I don't recall him developing or using any aoe attacks.

When he killed the Cell Juniors be just sorta punched must of them to death.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#38049: Apr 22nd 2016 at 2:58:56 PM

That is true.

Then again, maybe he was saving his full power for Frieza, especially since he didn't know if he could properly handle Super Saiyan anymore.

Though I'd argue it was another artificial attempt to create tension by nerfing Gohan so that Goku and Vegeta could save the day.

edited 22nd Apr '16 2:59:11 PM by HandsomeRob

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#38050: Apr 22nd 2016 at 3:07:33 PM

And then you remember that he can do the exact same thing he did to the Cell Jrs., that is, hunt them down and kill them one by one.

Remember: Roshi and Krillin were fast enough to have an entire fight in like a second back when they first fought at the tournament.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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