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JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#37751: Apr 17th 2016 at 5:33:58 PM

I will admit, the episode was actually pretty good. I was honestly expecting Goku to pull another form out of nowhere, instead he pulled off an old technique. Good stuff. Though the whole "faster than time" thing makes little sense, when time stops, it stops, regardless of speed.

As a side-note, it sounds like Hit's punches bypass power levels in general. If he were to learn Tenshinhan's multi-form technique, he'd have 8 arms to work with. That'd be pretty rad.

tl;dr: Powerlevels are bullshit.

Power levels themselves aren't, but the given numbers certainly are wack. I'm heavily suspect the figure Toriyama gave back then (the 6, 10, 15 thing) was just a hierarchy with made-up-on-the-spot numbers. If they were true, Goku using 10x Kaioken would put him well above Whis, and yet he still looks unimpressed.

The only time PL numbers ever made sense was during the Saiyan saga, really.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#37752: Apr 17th 2016 at 5:34:15 PM

To be fair, he was equal to Goku for several episodes; it's just that Goku used a technique to raise his power even higher, one that everyone had thought had been long since phased-out of the series by its creator because of the Super Saiyan forms taking its place.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#37753: Apr 17th 2016 at 5:40:33 PM

Whis could just not care about being surpassed. I mean, I doubt that's what it is, but I don't think caring about things like that is really in character for him.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#37754: Apr 17th 2016 at 5:45:04 PM

Actually, we don't see Whis' reaction to Kaio-Kenx10 Super Saiyan Blue. We only see Vegeta and Piccolo react.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#37755: Apr 17th 2016 at 5:46:41 PM

Though I can totally imagine Whis going "Even if you're stronger than me for an instant, you'll be goo before you can actually defeat me using it. Work on that."

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#37756: Apr 17th 2016 at 5:49:32 PM

I don't know...Goku seems to be able to keep the God Kaio-ken up pretty well in all honesty.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#37757: Apr 17th 2016 at 5:52:53 PM

Well I think it's more that Goku has to take some time to get that point, and Whis could beat him before then.

DarkHunter from New Mexico Since: Jan, 2001
#37758: Apr 17th 2016 at 5:53:30 PM

I'm heavily suspect the figure Toriyama gave back then (the 6, 10, 15 thing) was just a hierarchy with made-up-on-the-spot numbers.

I totally agree. Toriyama himself doesn't put any stock in the "hard numbers" of power levels, which is why he retired the scouters after the Freeza saga. I don't really understand why Dragonball fans keep referring to these arbitrary numbers as though they're some kind of gospel and cry foul when the, again arbitrary, numbers turn out to be a highly inaccurate way to measure power, just as they have always been.

That is why I said "powerlevels are bullshit". (Well, that and the chance to make an Abridged reference.)

edited 17th Apr '16 5:54:07 PM by DarkHunter

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#37759: Apr 17th 2016 at 5:55:10 PM

Eriorguez, you are an unclean! A great hubal, pawn of the devils. The struggle against you is now this forum's primary function until you get on your knees and worship. You will worship the numbers and perform calculations backed on vague conjecture whenever you see a fight scene!

Seriously though, I think the problem lies in people seeing 6, 10, 15 and just adding zeroes behind them, missing the point. You know, when people ask on a scale of 1 to 10, ten being the worst , the fifteen is just to say owe harder. It's not supposed to be an exact ratio. It probably doesn't help that Whis said 70% in the official material, so naturally that meant Goku had to be at 60 when he's a 6 to Beerus's 10.

If I had a problem with power levels, as far as how far below Beerus Goku should be, it's this: During the Battle Of Gods fight it was plainly obvious that Goku was weaker and slower than Beerus, yet he kept hitting Beerus anyway. Now yes, this was after Goku dropped out of god state without losing any real power, after Beerus had lost his cool, meaning he was failing around in anger and on top of that he was also confonded by Goku's instant transmission. It's possible 70 was in fact very much over kill to Beerus not keeping a cool head on top of two unexpected developments coming at him at once. But it still suggests he's not a particularly good fighter. Unless Beerus has some as of yet seen tricky technique, it doesn't seem like Goku should need to get too much more powerful to figure out a way to beat him.

He figured out a way to beat Raditz, after all, and yes Piccolo's helped him pull it off, but that's what I think of when Whis said Goku and Vegeta together can beat Beerus. It could be that Beerus, for all his might, may not be all that resourceful or insightful. And yes, Beerus can get visions of the future, but apparently he can't control them and Whis says Beerus's visions aren't usually very accurate anyway.

Buldogue's lawyer
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#37760: Apr 17th 2016 at 6:11:03 PM

Hit doesn't stop time, he skips time.

That's like saying THE WORLD and King Crimson have the same abilities, they don't.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#37761: Apr 17th 2016 at 6:18:52 PM

Except his "skipping" time is portrayed as more like "stopping" time.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#37762: Apr 17th 2016 at 6:24:56 PM

Jaco even explained it as stopping time. It seems that stopping time and skipping time are synonymous in Dragon Ball.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#37763: Apr 17th 2016 at 6:27:07 PM

Well that and the scene where Hit is just breaking up a frozen Goku should have really told people that it was more like a brief time stop.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Deadpoolrocks Since: Sep, 2010
#37765: Apr 17th 2016 at 7:05:15 PM

It's a time stop. because we got an explanation that makes sense. if it was a time skip the only explanation is it just works.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#37766: Apr 17th 2016 at 7:09:10 PM

Well, it'd be a timeskip if it worked kind of like Lancer's Gae Bolg, as in manipulating causality to move directly to the moment in which Hit has already, well, hit.

Basically, much like how Gae Bolg alters space and time to reverse the order of events (from "the spear is thrust, then it hits" to "the spear hits, then it is thrust"), Hit would basically skip the "punching" to move directly to "the pressure point is hit".

That'd be kinda cool and badass.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#37767: Apr 17th 2016 at 7:33:52 PM

Its kind of hard to differentiate between "skipping time" and "stopping time".

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#37768: Apr 17th 2016 at 7:34:58 PM

Can I just gush over how good Kaio-Ken Super Saiyan Blue Goku looks?! First, we have the Kaio-Ken red color shading over his body, turning his blue shoes, belt, and armbands purple, his orange Gi red, and his skin a darker, pinkish color. Second, his hair, eyebrows, and eyes have stayed their cyan hue, contrasting beautifully with his reddish body. Finally, Goku looks like he exists in layers in this form: a red layer of himself on the inside, a blue layer of his hair and the fiery blue Super Saiyan Blue aura in the middle, and the spiky red Kaio-Ken aura on the outside!

edited 17th Apr '16 7:52:10 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#37769: Apr 17th 2016 at 8:23:13 PM

My current estimations of everyone's power (I've thrown away the 6/10/15 scale):

Beerus: 10,000,000,000,000

Whis: 50,000,000,000,000

Champa: 9,000,000,000,000

Vados: 60,000,000,000,000

Goku: 1,600,000,000

Vegeta: 1,600,000,000

Piccolo: 25,000,000,000

Mr. Buu: 22,000,000,000

Monaka: 4

1st Form Frost: 1,400,000,000

Assault Form Frost: 2,100,000,000

SS1 Goku: 80,000,000,000

Final Form Frost: 42,000,000,000

SS1 Vegeta: 80,000,000,000

100% Magetta: 90,000,000,000

Red aura 200% Magetta: 180,000,000,000

Cabba: 1,500,000,000

SS1 Cabba: 75,000,000,000

SSB Vegeta: 4,000,000,000,000

SSB Goku: 4,000,000,000,000

Hit: 3,500,000,000,000

KKSSB Goku: 8,000,000,000,000

KKx10SSB Goku: 40,000,000,000,000

edited 17th Apr '16 9:47:31 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#37770: Apr 17th 2016 at 8:55:13 PM

TL;DR

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#37771: Apr 17th 2016 at 8:56:10 PM

Great, more numbers.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#37772: Apr 17th 2016 at 8:59:36 PM

Fan numbers aren't too interesting.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#37773: Apr 17th 2016 at 9:11:08 PM

But can they beat Mark Hercule Satan?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#37774: Apr 17th 2016 at 9:25:50 PM

No.

Nobody can beat Satan because Toriyama would never allow it.

And when I say beat Satan, I mean prove he's a fraud. Because everyone can beat Satan with their pinkies.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#37775: Apr 17th 2016 at 9:48:39 PM

Cut out everything aside from the U6 tournament. I promise I won't do this again for a while.


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