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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#36401: Mar 24th 2016 at 8:56:52 PM

Shrug of Indifference to opposing opinions and ideas! +10 passive aggressiveness!

I mean, I guess. I'm just not as fond of Super Saiyan 3, aesthetically or functionally, as I used to be.

S'got a b'tchin transformation scene though, probably the loudest in the series. Up until "RRAAAWH! I WILL NOT LET YOU DESTROY MY WORLD!" that was the most epic Goku moment I'd ever witnessed, even going on for as long as it did.

edited 24th Mar '16 8:58:52 PM by Soble

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IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#36402: Mar 24th 2016 at 9:13:40 PM

The SSJ 3 transformation went on for five minutes. Goku took longer to transform than what it took for Namek to explode. He also caused earthquakes on the other side of the world and broke pretty much every single thing made of glass in the world.

It kinda reminds you that it only takes Goku, Vegeta or Gohan losing their shit for the world to be destroyed by accident.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#36403: Mar 24th 2016 at 9:17:08 PM

[up][up]It's still a f*cking awesome moment.

By comparison, SSJ 4's transformation is just a headscratcher for me. :l

edited 24th Mar '16 9:18:19 PM by hardcorefakes

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#36404: Mar 24th 2016 at 9:20:25 PM

Yeah, but that's GT, so......

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#36405: Mar 24th 2016 at 9:57:21 PM

Backing up to the Kaio-ken thing; I though it was a 1.5 multiplier, with x2 being a, well, x2 multiplier?

I also never understood why the Full-powered/Grade IV(?) Super Saiyan wasn't kept around. All the advantages of SSJ, no clear or noted disadvantages? Hell, SSJ 2 didn't really seem to have any drawbacks either beyond what SSJ also had normally, so I don't see how they couldn't have eventually hit a trained, Full-power SSJ 2.

As far as I'm concerned, my little fanon is that SSJ and its variants are like elements; some are stable, others aren't. Since SSJ 3 is rather unstable, I personally think Goku missed the mark and hit an 'unstable' SSJ 2 or 3 variant that, luckily, was still stable enough to be usable. I mean, it shares a lot of the same prperties as the SSJ variants, such as having to 'dig deep' to reach it, i.e. force the transformation, a slight bulk increase in muscle, and ki drain that renders the user severely weakened in a short time span.

As for SSJ 4...I honestly liked the change, liked the look, and I even liked the concept of a more 'primal' level of SSJ. What I hated was how it was achieved. And Vegetas transformation was downright stupid.

edited 24th Mar '16 10:02:18 PM by Reservoir

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36406: Mar 24th 2016 at 10:05:26 PM

Full Power Super Saiyan was kept around. They don't need to do the 24/7 Super Saiyan to maintain it once it has been mastered, but even in the Boo arc they show the changed eyes and aura.

Reservoir A former adventurer... from Eastern US Since: Jan, 2013 Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
A former adventurer...
#36407: Mar 24th 2016 at 10:33:05 PM

Hmm, I apologize for missing that then. As for not showing it all the time, I figured that since they mastered it to the point it was their base, then it would've stayed that way. My reasoning was, 'if you have to actively transform, then it's not fully mastered.' Did Vegeta do the whole mastery thing in between the Cell and Buu sagas when I wasn't paying attention, too?

Speaking of Vegeta, I've always wondered how he hid learning SSJ 2 from practically everyone. Considering the x100 power up, I figure his first transformation would've been hard to miss.

edited 24th Mar '16 10:34:13 PM by Reservoir

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#36408: Mar 24th 2016 at 10:44:52 PM

Well, unless you are powering up so hard that stuff everywhere is being destroyed by it, you transforming is very unlikely to be noticed considering that Ki sensing is a technique that needs to be consciously turned on and turns off when not in use.

edited 24th Mar '16 10:45:26 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#36409: Mar 24th 2016 at 10:46:06 PM

They didn't master it that much. Being 24/7 Super Saiyans was part of their training, not the end result.

Super Saiyan always had a strain so staying in the form as much as possible was to get used to the strain. After they've done that it doesn't matter whether they transform into the form or not.

Vegeta and Trunks mastered the form before the Cell Games, they have all the traits of the form when they fight the Cell Juniors.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#36410: Mar 24th 2016 at 11:09:56 PM

So, what's better, the Super Saiyan GD 4 or Super Saiyan GD 5?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36411: Mar 25th 2016 at 7:38:26 AM

I like Super Saiyan 3 as the final form for that line of Super Saiyan because it shows how far you can take the form. It's absurdly powerful but also really inefficient and it's easy to see that as the final form simply because taking it any further would just mean the energy drain would become too impractical.

  • GOHAN: Have you ever wondered if there might be a Super Saiyan 4?
  • GOKU: There is. I already discovered it back when I was dead. It's about four times as powerful as Super Saiyan 3.
  • GOHAN: Then why didn't you use it against Majin Buu?
  • GOKU: Here, let me show you.
  • Goku powers up energy, the world shakes, there is a bright yellow flash, and then Goku is left standing there in Base
  • GOHAN: ...so where is it?
  • GOKU: That was it. The energy drain is so pronounced that it immediately sucks out all your power and reverts you to base. Now I'm off to take a nap.

Well, unless you are powering up so hard that stuff everywhere is being destroyed by it, you transforming is very unlikely to be noticed considering that Ki sensing is a technique that needs to be consciously turned on and turns off when not in use.

No, it's not. Ki sensing is a form of awareness. Characters notice powerful ki without trying to all the time. The most prominent example would be when everyone suddenly realized Frieza and King Cold were descending upon the planet. Nobody was actively searching the stars, going, "I wonder if Frieza's out there," but once he got close enough, everyone capable of ki sensing could feel his approach.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36412: Mar 25th 2016 at 8:07:53 AM

Continuing this discussion from the Death Battle thread Hey! , part of the issue with Toei's depiction of Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu's revivals stems from the fact that they never really understood Toriyama's afterlife mechanics.

Toriyama established with Goku's death that some people receive special dispensation and are allowed to retain their bodies when they die. Toei never quite seemed to grasp what this means: when you die, your soul becomes a little wisp ball. The only people walking around with halos are the ones who kept their body, which is their physical body retrieved from the mortal plane and repaired so their soul can be stuffed into it. This is done so a person can keep their power and continue training in the afterlife.

In their filler and Adaptation Expansion, Toei repeatedly demonstrates a lack of understanding of these mechanics. In addition to the point about Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu's onscreen revivals not being consistent with established mechanics from the manga, they also repeatedly show villains keeping their bodies, most notably the Ginyu Force filler - which also seems to ignore that the only way to reach Kaio-sama's planet is by making the trip down Snake Way - and the scenes of Frieza and Cell being Bash Brothers in Hell.

They did seem to get it by the time Buu rolled around; when they show Dabura in Heaven with Chi-Chi, Bulma, and Videl, everyone tapers off at the bottom into a little wispy tail to indicate that these are the powerless wisps and not bodied characters; they're just identifiably defined for audience convenience.

edited 25th Mar '16 8:08:26 AM by TobiasDrake

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Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#36413: Mar 25th 2016 at 8:29:07 AM

Toriyama changed hell anyway with Super, it now seems to be planet-specific and designed to be ironic. I found Frieza's hell hilarious.

Mostly posting for new avatar. I wanted some of that pizza, the Food Porn attributes make me think that a lot of the Toriko people went on to work on DB Super. It would fit the schedule and where Toriko left off...

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#36414: Mar 25th 2016 at 8:30:05 AM

part of the issue with Toei's depiction of Yamcha, Tien, and Chiaotzu's revivals stems from the fact that they never really understood Toriyama's afterlife mechanics.

Toriyama established

In their filler and Adaptation Expansion, Toei repeatedly demonstrates a lack of understanding of these mechanics.

not being consistent with established mechanics from the manga,

So, another "Toei done goofed"?

And Frieza still has his body in Resurrection F, trapped inside of a cocoon.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36415: Mar 25th 2016 at 8:52:31 AM

Frieza doesn't have his body in Resurrection of F. His tortured soul in Hell resembles his body in the same way Toei had Bulma, Chi-Chi, Videl, and Dabura's souls identifiable in Heaven, but it's not actually his body. This distinction is important: Shenron brings it up when he's revived that, upon revival, his body will still be in the gibs Trunks carved it into.

If Frieza kept his body, this wouldn't be an issue. The gibs would have been repaired, and the act of resurrecting him would only remove his halo. He would then need to be brought out of Hell, presumably using another wish. None of this happens: the vaporization is undone, the gibs are restored to life, and Frieza's soul is pulled out of Hell and stuffed back into them as is typical of resurrection for non-bodied characters.

Also, nitpick, Toriyama didn't change Hell. Toriyama had never showed Hell. Any time you've ever seen Hell prior to ROF, it was Toei's filler. Much like the existence of Dr. Gero retconned Dr. Frappe, Toriyama introduced a new element that Toei had already previously run with because Toriyama cares as much for Toei's filler as Toei cares for consistency.

edited 25th Mar '16 8:56:00 AM by TobiasDrake

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HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#36416: Mar 25th 2016 at 8:57:41 AM

Yeah. The characters keeping their bodies in hell never made much sense considering these guys are powerful enough to destroy multiple planets, Why would you want them to keep their full power?

So we know that it's still possible for a person to be killed in Heaven (which results in their souls being destroyed and Cessation of Existence), but can that still happen to them if they'v been revived for a day ala Old-han (original Gohan) in the Baba saga and Goku and Vegeta during the Buu saga?

In the case of the latter two, there seemed to be some indication that they couldn't really be killed again while in the mortal plane, but I'm not totally sure.

edited 25th Mar '16 8:59:12 AM by HandsomeRob

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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#36417: Mar 25th 2016 at 9:02:31 AM

Alright, I see your point, I hadn't thought about that.

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Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#36418: Mar 25th 2016 at 9:11:38 AM

Dragon Ball Heroes God Mission 8 stuff!

Hit, Cabba and Vados are gonna be playable. Also, Goku and Vegeta are gonna have cards where they transform from SSJ to SSJB.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#36419: Mar 25th 2016 at 9:12:08 AM

Yeah. The characters keeping their bodies in hell never made much sense considering these guys are powerful enough to destroy multiple planets, Why would you want them to keep their full power?

So we know that it's still possible for a person to be killed in Heaven (which results in their souls being destroyed and Cessation of Existence), but can that still happen to them if they'v been revived for a day ala Old-han (original Gohan) in the Baba saga and Goku and Vegeta during the Buu saga?

In the case of the latter two, there seemed to be some indication that they couldn't really be killed again while in the mortal plane, but I'm not totally sure.

There are all kinds of answers that could be presumed, but none with clear evidence to support it. We never get to see a Cessation of Existence and the risk of is only brought up when Vegeta's buying time for Goku to power up in his Super Saiyan 3 form by fighting Pure Buu on Kaioshin's Planet - and it's not entirely clear whether that would even be considered afterlife, mortal plane, or something else entirely like a realm of divinity or somesuch.

As such, I assume that if a dead person were to die in the physical plane, they would suffer Cessation of Existence just as they would in the afterlife. But there is room to argue regarding the fact that Goku's ability to remain in the physical world was, itself, a tangible element that could be manipulated; Goku transforming into Super Saiyan 3 expends most of his remaining time on Earth, implying that his time isn't just a clock but an energy source or something that can be depleted. It might be possible that killing a dead person in the mortal plane simply depletes their energy and rubber-bands them back to the afterlife.

edited 25th Mar '16 9:15:10 AM by TobiasDrake

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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#36420: Mar 25th 2016 at 3:52:54 PM

Actually it was Toriyama who design Hell for the anime staff, so Toei didn't pull it out of their butt. He also did change Hell a little since according to Piccolo all bad people are cleanse, have their memories removed, and are reborn like Uub. Yemma also sent Dabura to Heaven since Hell is like the Demon Realm, yet Hell, at least Earth's Hell looks like candy land.

And let's get real, Toei is more consistent than Toriyama when it come to remembering their own material.

edited 25th Mar '16 3:57:18 PM by Ramona122003

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#36421: Mar 25th 2016 at 3:59:07 PM

What was the inconsistency with Tien, Yamcha, and Chaozu's resurrections?

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#36422: Mar 25th 2016 at 4:18:57 PM

The only inconstancy I can think of about Tien, Yamcha, and Chaozu's resurrections, is that they are sent straight back to Earth, while Goku had run back from Snake Way. It was the same with Kami who went back to the Lookout after his revival.

But that can be somewhat be explained as the Namekian Dragon being nicer than Shenron and simply dumped all the revived people near their friends and family. But that wouldn't explain why Piccolo was revived on King Kai's planet instead of being sent right back to Earth.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#36423: Mar 25th 2016 at 4:31:20 PM

A man named Mr. Joy explains why he doesn't like Dragon Ball Super. There are some general Dragon Ball franchise critiques he has as well, but he reminds you that they're just his opinions.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#36424: Mar 25th 2016 at 5:40:20 PM

Goku had to run back from snake way because his body wasn't on Earth...when he was revived.

It's a little weird.

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unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#36425: Mar 25th 2016 at 5:44:13 PM

Neither was Tien's or the rest.


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