As I said, Toei actually made corrections in the script like Frieza stating that he has met Bulma, so it isn't like Toei had a problem in correcting anything they saw was incorrect, especially since Frieza made a big deal of having a battle power of over a million. I also don't see why the 1.3 million line can be seen either a joke, or Frieza vastly underestimated himself. Also, the joke can't be really explained to the audience any way since it isn't like Sobet can tell Frieza that his numbers are BS since it isn't like he knew and 1.3 million would sound impressive to him since a power level of 180,000 was considered ungodly back on Namek. Also, Toriyama made a whole thing of not trusting power levels. Anyone who did usually got their butts kick.
So yes, if you're jaded enough, you can say it's mistake. Fact is, we can't prove either way if it's a joke, Frieza's underestimating himself and thinking becoming twice as strong in his first form is impressive, or it was a mistake.
edited 11th Mar '16 10:30:55 PM by Ramona122003
I suppose he could have been talking about start to finish. That's what I assume he was until people started stating which Naruto characters they thought were as strong as saiyan and namek saga Dragon Ball characters.
And wearing weighted clothing at all times is dedicated training. No, it's not the same as drills, cardio, meditation, you'd generally want to do something in addition to it to stay sharp but it will keep you in shape.
Buldogue's lawyerThe fact is, no one knows how much stronger Goku and Piccolo became during the five years timeskip, so it can't be proven or disproven that Goku and Piccolo didn't get much stronger in five years. If you want to believe the suppose official Dragon Ball numbers from the original series they put King Piccolo at a power level of 260, take that as you will.
But I am certain Piccolo pre-Z can destroy the moon since Master Roshi did it back during the 21st tournament. The only question is, is how effortlessly he can do it and whether you believe it's easier for him to destroy the moon or an island.
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Again, it's a different kind of mistake, and fixing one error doesn't mean they caught and fixed all of them.
Your reasoning doesn't make a lot of sense. If there's no way for Toriyama to actually deliver the joke to the audience then it's a pretty crappy joke.
And it wasn't relying on power levels that was the problem - it was scouters, the technology for measuring them. Scouters could be fooled but power levels were just a measure of ki, and they were absolute. Nappa overwhelmed the humans with his superior power level and was then overwhelmed by the stronger Goku. When Goku demolished the Ginyu Force, Vegeta realized that he was simply raising his power too high for the scouters to detect - he wasn't actually at 5,000 at the moments when he was kicking their asses.
Long after scouters left, people sensing ki and reacting to large ki never went away. Vegeta even continues to use the same phrase whether he's using a scouter or sensing ki, and the series is full of people displaying a superior ki and then backing it up in battle.
Again, there's simply nothing jaded about it. The joke explanation doesn't make sense. It's not about proving it either way, your argument is just weak.
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It can be proven because Piccolo said that Goku didn't get much stronger. Also, those battle powers give Goku at the 23rd a Battle Power of 910, compared to Saiyan arc Goku's Kamehameha of 924. Showing that there was not much improvement.
While God's battle power is up in the air, Popo's is clearly after he trained with the humans and got much stronger. If God is the same, then he could just be weaker with age. Doesn't contradict anything. The fact that these battle powers were published in Jump along with a chapter of the Saiyah arc and match up with details Toriyama was saying at the time lend to their validity.
That is a FAR cry from them being garbage and worthless.
edited 11th Mar '16 10:39:26 PM by Saiga
I remember the update took out Mr. Popo and Kami's numbers. lol
Most fans agree that the power scaling for Dragon Ball really doesn't transfer over well to Z. Like everyone has pitiful weak power level in Z, yet in Dragon Ball Master Roshi could blow up the moon, King Piccolo can destroy cities, and Piccolo can flatten an island. Feats wise, the only impressive person in the Saiyan Saga was Vegeta who can destroy a planet.
There are also oddball things like Old King Piccolo kicking Goku's butt with only half his power while Roshi's power level was officially 180 in the Saiyan Saga and Goku is even or stronger than Master Roshi during the King Piccolo Saga. So how did King Piccolo beat Goku with just half?
Also, it is a joke and a funny one. It's a joke to people who actually take power levels seriously.
And you can't prove it was a mistake or how true that power level 910 actually is since power levels didn't exist during the 23rd tournament.
edited 11th Mar '16 10:52:41 PM by Ramona122003
Because Popo was the one actually sparring with them, as seen on-panel. He'd also been training Goku before that so that could have increased his strength from his Daimao arc level as well.
God speculated that he was reaching the end of his lifespan would could account for the drop in his power.
I agree with that but that is still a far cry from dismissing all battle powers and ignoring what is actually shown in the story from the Saiyan arc onwards. They're clearly not a joke for anyone who actually pays attention to the events of the manga during the Saiyan-Namek arcs.
Simplest answer, I think this is just another thing Toriyama overlooked. Easy in-universe answer, though - Daimao doesn't know battle powers, and therefore can't measure his battle power when he's making that statement. I don't know why you'd put more stock in his idea of half when ignoring the devices that can do exact calculations with figures.
I sure as hell wouldn't be able to measure what half my strength was from the effort I'm putting out. The Dragon Ball characters have the advantage of sensing ki, but... so do the scouters that battle powers rely on.
I'm not talking about proof, though. The battle power of 910 has official backing, which doesn't necessarily make it 100% correct but does give it support.
And, frankly, I don't see why I need to definitely prove it was a mistake when your entire defense for saying it was a joke is that I can't prove you wrong. Kind of a double standard. All I said was that it was another option, and I think it's the more sensible one especially when you aren't doing much to argue otherwise.
edited 11th Mar '16 11:15:55 PM by Saiga
I think King Piccolo would know his own battle power better than anyone. So, I see no reason to not to believe him when he says that he used only half his power when he beat Goku. The simplest answer, the power scaling between Dragon Ball and Z is crap and any attempt to make them fit is mental gymnastics. If that is what you and others do, go ahead. But the fact remains that power levels didn't exist in Dragon Ball and when Toriyama invented them he most likely didn't take into account the power scaling from before. And that 910 really has no basic at all since, again, power levels didn't existence in Dragon Ball.
Just because something is in the data book doesn't automatically makes it true, just like King Piccolo's 260 power level in his youth which can't work simply because Master Roshi's official power level from the manga is 180. Goku was equal to stronger during the King Piccolo Saga. So, if we drop Old King Piccolo to say 200, half his power would only be 100. Even if he used a third it would be still be way below Goku. So why would I automatically take the 910 power level as fact when they couldn't even get King Piccolo's power level right? Heck, they didn't even give us what was Goku and Piccolo's power levels were during the tournament, but we got Cyborg Tao. It's almost if they knew they were pulling numbers out of their butts.
You gave an option for the 1.3 million line was a mistake. I said if you're jaded about, yeah it could be a mistake. You then said being critical isn't a mistake and you're more correct because it's simpler. I neither denied your claim that it could be a mistake, but you have tried to denied any chance that it could be a joke (because you didn't find it funny) or Frieza underestimated himself and was talking about his first form. Both which are within reason and none can be proven either way unless Toriyama tells us.
Roshi's 180 wasn't from the manga. It only comes from the source that pegs Daimao at 260. Whomp-whomp.
I already said I think it's just something that Toriyama overlooked, but the in-story reason that Daimao doesn't know battle power units makes it fine to me that it doesn't match up. I've already said there are issues. It's a big stretch to say they're "crap" or require "mental gymnastics" from that. No, it doesn't, you just have to accept that not everything is going to line up perfectly. Which is true of any aspect of Dragon Ball, because of Toriyama's writing there are inconsistencies in all parts of the story. Only treating power levels harshly because of it is the unfair part.
You are really putting words in my mouth - or just bad at English, it's hard to tell with all the mistakes in your posts.
I'm saying that I believe it's more likely. That's all.
No, but you repeatedly said it possible if someone was jaded. I'm saying it doesn't require that at all, but you kept insisting.
No, I'm just arguing why I don't think that's likely. And it's not about finding it funny, it's about how it doesn't seem like a joke at all which is completely different - it's possible to recognize something is a joke without finding it funny.
edited 12th Mar '16 4:57:21 AM by Saiga
To be fair, Naruto being a Planet Buster was invented by the fans and is mostly based on the feats shown in the movies, of dubious canonicity - particularly because the almost-certainly-canonical Gaiden stopped a few hairs short of saying that Naruto had gotten weaker since the end of the manga, not stronger -, so there's that.
Anyway, anyone who's not a Naruto fanboy would be able to tell you that there's no realistic way in which they're going to beat Nappa, let alone anyone above him.
And no, destroying the moon doesn't put them anywhere near Nappa's level. Piccolo did that while being ten times weaker than Nappa at the time. Roshi pulled that off being half that. And there's also the speed argument. Other than ridiculous claim of Naruto dodging a FTL attack from Madara... well, the Dragon Ball characters were already moving too fast to be seen by the naked eyes... around the time of the first Tenkaichi Budokai, and they've gotten immensely faster since then.
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariActually you're right, Roshi's power level isn't 180. It's one 139. Which still doesn't make much sense if young King Piccolo is a 260. Your in-story reason doesn't make much sense either since no character have ever guess their own power wrong, and I can't imagine a character like Piccolo not knowing what half his own power feels like. There is also the whole mess about how strong his children are since they can kill someone like Krillin with ease, but get flatten by Goku, who gets flattened by King Piccolo. Which is why I said mental gymnastics. You have to believe King Piccolo, for whatever reason, doesn't know his own power, where it is easier to just accept the power scaling doesn't work and just move on. Like how fans accept the plot hole that the Dragon Balls were active after only eight months instead of a year after the 21st tournament.
I also don't just treat power levels harshly. I am fully aware of Toriyama's mistakes and plot holes. They just don't bother me and I don't give a enough crap about power levels to care whether Roshi has a power level 136 or 18,000. Especially when most of those official numbers were most likely made up. Also, what is with posters attacking grammar to prove a point?
Saying that someone is being jaded isn't the same as denying someone's remark. It just means you think the worse possible outcome is the most true. You believe Toriyama and Toei made a mistake and they believe Frieza's full power is 530,000. I just took the more idealistic approach and said that I believe it was a joke about how worthless power levels are and Frieza underestimated himself, and we really can't prove any of this either way. So, you have your opinion, and I have mines. In the end, it really doesn't make a bit of different since we all know Frieza's power is well over 1.3 million, so the whole statement is moot. If Frieza went around in his golden form saying he had a power level of 1.3 million, I would see your point. Although it would be hilarious just to have Goku and Vegeta stare at him like he's crazy.
edited 12th Mar '16 5:29:31 AM by Ramona122003
Except I've said every fucking time that I think it was just overlooked. Stop ignoring that. Anyway, you're really stretching it to say mental gymnastics is required to explain it - I'm not saying Daimao doesn't know his own strength. I'm saying he's not thinking about battle powers, and not being completely literal. The only times we've known someone is being literal about using half their power or what-have-you is when we've got the battle powers to back it up. You're the one taking this too seriously with how insistent you're being about it not being able to work and that people have to move on.
It's not attacking your grammar. It's genuinely not knowing whether you're understanding me because you keep using replacement words that don't mean the same thing.
It is when you're suggesting that's the only possibility, even as they're repeatedly telling you it's not the case. How is this:
"You're jaded"
"No, I'm not"
"You're jaded"
Not disregarding someone's remark?
Only if I thought it was the most true because it was the worst possible outcome. Which is not the reason I find it more likely, I find it more likely because mistakes happen and the manga is proof that Toriyama makes them quite regularly.
Really, it being a mistake is not the worst possible outcome. Mistakes were made during the original manga and they weren't the end of the world. It's not that big a deal, so I don't get how you could begin to consider it the worst possible outcome or think it requires someone to be jaded if they call it a mistake. Is it jaded to point out any of the manga's various mistakes?
There is no scaling issue between Dragon Ball and "Z" because "Z" only exists in TOEI's obscene fantasies.
Power levels themselves became an issue when they were assigned numerical values that had no basis in anything. Sure, the bigger number is stronger than the smaller one, but what scale those numbers were based on was never addressed.
It shouldn't be that big of an issue, mind you. Numerical power levels only lasted for two arcs! In fact, from a narrative perspective, they served their purpose just fine. In the arc the were introduced in, Goku peaked around 24,000 using times 3 kaioken and Vegeta peaked around 180,000 as a werewolf monkey. At the start of the next arc, Vegeta was a plain 24,000 and Goku was 180,000 using Kaioken, demonstrating how much stronger saiyans get when come close to near death. Goku and Vegeta were speculated to be approaching the legendary super saiyan status Freeza feared, they improved so much. And Freeza had the ridiculous 530,000 power level, and three transformations on top of it, showing super saiyan was necessary to beat him.
But during the fight with Freeza numerical power levels were thrown out. The numbers had served their purpose. They aren't based on anything, there is no conversion table that explains what 100,000,000 means, we just know someone with that number will have the advantage over fighters only at 99,000,000 and be at a disadvantage to those at 110,000,000.
Applying "numbers" to anything pre Raditz or post Namek is a fruitless effort. Lower than 1200, higher than 1,000,000. That's all you need to know. That is unless you're using the 6-10-15 scale.
edited 12th Mar '16 5:37:12 AM by IndirectActiveTransport
Buldogue's lawyer

Because Naruto went from being able to destroy a large boulder at most, to a small planet at his strongest, within 4-6 years.
Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!