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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35426: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:08:07 PM

It is a retcon in that it was said by everyone that Piccolo is a demon. Then we find out he's a demon. I can see him being misclassified as a demon because of his evilness, but him being an actual demon makes little sense, since why would the Nameless Namek's evil turn into a demon. He would just be an evil Namek, who are not demonic as far as we know.

I see what you mean, but that isn't how a demon is described in Dragon Ball. Someone like Dabura is actually described as a demon and he isn't called pure evil.

edited 8th Mar '16 5:09:52 PM by Ramona122003

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35427: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:09:06 PM

Could someone refresh my memory, why does Champa want the super dragonballs?

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#35428: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:11:07 PM

He wants to bring our Earth over to his universe because its food is tastier.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35429: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:12:06 PM

And to mess with Beerus.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35430: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:12:22 PM

But was that what he wanted at first? I thought he only find out about that when he first meet up with Beerus and he already had like five six of them by then.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35431: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:14:14 PM

We don't know what his original wish was.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#35432: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:17:40 PM

I would imagine that he originally wanted a scratching post, but then Earth's food came along and gave him a new objective.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#35433: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:42:12 PM

Consider the following:

Toriyama has shown to be a Disney fan before, willing to include references in his work (Bibidi, Babidi, Boo).

Frost is an evil royal pretending to be a good guy beloved by all, just like Prince Hans from Frozen. Which is super popular in Japan.

Coincidence??

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35435: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:54:08 PM

Either it's a very well timed coincidence, or Toriyama just trolled us on a level none of us were expecting.

Either way, it's rather funny.

Though I don't think he's that much of a Disney fan. The Dabura Bibidi Babidi Buu thing is the only reference, and it was probably just due to liking how it sounds, since Japan loves random english.

One Strip! One Strip!
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35436: Mar 8th 2016 at 6:44:50 PM

That's not really even English, it's just a sound.

edited 8th Mar '16 6:45:20 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35437: Mar 8th 2016 at 6:49:00 PM

I think it's mostly a troll.

Thinking about it, the troll works because of the marketing for this arc. The manga went ahead and introduced us to these characters sooner. So we had months to build into our minds that Frost was a good person. First by Piccolo sensing no evil in Frost and by the Saiyans being heroes in U6. When he finally showed up in the anime, we had it in our minds that he's good. His backstory soldified it. This level of betrayal wouldn't have worked if we just went by the anime since we only knew good Frost for one episode.

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#35438: Mar 8th 2016 at 7:22:43 PM

Writing with the purpose of trolling your audience and not telling a good story is bad writing. If Toriyama seriously cares more about screwing with his readers than actually making something worth reading then fine, it's his franchise, he'll make money off it no matter what he does. Just don't expect all the fans to embrace the author sabotaging his own story just to make them feel dumb.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#35439: Mar 8th 2016 at 7:28:10 PM

I'm still extremely confused as to whether Toei or Toriyama has more creative control. I've heard Toriyama doesn't even like Super very much.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#35440: Mar 8th 2016 at 8:16:03 PM

It's because a lot of people are bothered at the implication that the setting people have been following for the past 25+ years is implied (even in jest) to be the bad universe. Which is strange, as if it was really the case it would make the accomplishments of the heroes even MORE impressive.

Honestly, that's just funny to me. I'm more disappointed by Frost turning out to be an Anti-Villain,

Writing with the purpose of trolling your audience and not telling a good story is bad writing. If Toriyama seriously cares more about screwing with his readers

Feel like we're jumping the gun here.

I'm still extremely confused as to whether Toei or Toriyama has more creative control. I've heard Toriyama doesn't even like Super very much.

When does Toriyama ever actually comment on how much he likes or dislikes something?

I brought this up once, I have never seen an official statement made by this man, he seems very detached from commenting on any of his work, or any side stories based on his work. Welp, excluding Super Exciting Guide, but I've still never read or heard of him directly talking down any part of the franchise.

edited 8th Mar '16 8:29:25 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35441: Mar 8th 2016 at 8:19:54 PM

[up]He's not even an anti-villain, apparently he's just a straight up villain who's a Bitch in Sheep's Clothing.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#35442: Mar 8th 2016 at 8:24:09 PM

You're right.

Having a good!Frieza was just fine, I'd even accept a Good Is Not Nice Frieza Frost, I was hoping for that when he revealed the needle. But starting his own wars just to end them and take all the credit, that's too much.

edited 8th Mar '16 8:24:28 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35443: Mar 8th 2016 at 8:56:52 PM

Toriyama never said he never liked the series. He said he complained about the production. What exactly he means is vague, but most fans concluded he means the animation. However, he could have easily meant the rush production overall in Super or getting on Toei about Episode 5.

The actually story and character designs are done by Toriyama (although he had little to nothing to do with the retellings) and the twist with Frost is something that he would do and not Toei who would most likely play the good Frieza counterpart straight. Toriyama even talked about how excited he was about Super and he was the one who let out that Super will retell the movies before going into Universe 6. The way Champa and Vados are written also have Toriyama's style all over it.

For me, the thing that tells me that this arc was written or heavily involved Toriyama is how original it is. Toei has this annoying quirk about recycling their plot points. GT was full of them. First half of GT was basically the original 13 episode In Space. The Baby Saga was basically Eradicate All Saiyans with a fusion of the Garlic Jr Saga, and the final fight being a Call-Back to the Frieza fight and Vegeta with Golden Great Ape Baby. Super 17 was basically movie 12 mixed with the Android Saga. The only original arc was the Shadow Dragons and even that had Goku formed a massive Spirit Bomb to killl Omega Shenron, exactly like the Kid Buu fight.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#35444: Mar 8th 2016 at 10:32:03 PM

DBH Secret Card Commercial:

Confirms SSJ3 Time Patrol Gotenks and reveals Young Demigra, who seems to have a team attack with Gravy and Putine plus a special transformation. My guess is that he can become his Demon God form.

They'll probably save Final Form Demigra for the next update.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#35445: Mar 8th 2016 at 11:40:05 PM

He said he complained about the production. What exactly he means is vague, but most fans concluded he means the animation. However, he could have easily meant the rush production overall in Super or getting on Toei about Episode 5.

No, he complained about the quality. And the fans who concluded he meant the animation are jumping to conclusions based on nothing.

Japanese readers have said that the wording is quite harsh, and it's in the same sentence that he's complaining about Evolution.

I think it's silly to immediately assume it's only about animation quality in light of that.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#35446: Mar 9th 2016 at 12:03:42 AM

Yes, he said he was fine not doing Dragon Ball, then "Evolution" made him "angry", leading him to rewrite movie script. Then the "quality" of "Super" made him angry again, with him reaching the conclusion he'd be doing a lot of Dragon Ball in the foreseeable future.

It's funny, when he did Dragon Ball Online it had no trace of GT or anything else from TOEI's anime projects, but he called GT "wonderful". I do wonder just what it was about Evolution and Super than angered him that was absent in GT? One day when I need little sleep I might do a side by side with Evolution and GT. GT is the absolute worst the franchise has to offer in my opinion and "Anime" Super isn't even worth watching when we have a manga but playing internet psychologist and trying to figure out where Toriyama was coming from sounds like fun.

Buldogue's lawyer
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35447: Mar 9th 2016 at 1:40:41 AM

Thanks for the clarification.

I also said that fans assumed it was about animation, but the sentence is vague in that we don't actually know what he's talking about. It could the overall rush production, animation, or him grilling Toei about Episode 5. We don't know and we can only guess.

Also, he didn't do Dragon Ball Online. He did some concept art and a bit of the lore and that was it. Online also had nothing from Dragon Ball anime in general because they couldn't get the rights for it, so they were limited to manga only material. Toriyama like or dislike for GT has nothing to do with it.

edited 9th Mar '16 1:42:28 AM by Ramona122003

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#35448: Mar 9th 2016 at 3:44:41 AM

[up][up] It should be noted that the devs of Dragon Ball Online didn't have the rights to use anything from the anime, movies or GT. They just had the rights to the manga and their original content.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35449: Mar 9th 2016 at 7:28:44 AM

Does this mean Toriyama might not hate GT as much as the rest of us do?

It's kinda scary that he seems to put Super in the same category as Evolution. Yeah, we've all been frustrated with Super, but is it really anywhere near as bad as Evolution?

~Rob is deafened by a resounding YES~

...ow.

One Strip! One Strip!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35450: Mar 9th 2016 at 9:01:31 AM

NO. NO IT IS NOT. SUPER MAY HAVE FLAWS, BUT IT IS LEAGUES SUPERIOR TO THAT GARBAGE EMBARRASSMENT TO THE FRANCHISE KNOWN AS EVOLUTION.

edited 9th Mar '16 9:08:18 AM by PushoverMediaCritic


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