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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35401: Mar 8th 2016 at 2:02:40 PM

I know that. I was saying that to prove a point. King Piccolo and Piccolo being demons was retcon out. So Piccolo wasn't reborn into a different species, which was my point.

Also, why would that be assumed by the person who created Piccolo. He knew Piccolo better than anyone and Kami can sense evil. Shouldn't he be the first to know Piccolo wasn't as evil. And there is no such thing as a Namekian demon. He was originally a demon before it got retcon to him being an alien. No one ever calls Piccolo a Namekian demon or whatever. I don't really believe King Piccolo had no choice but to be evil since it's extremely questionable if he was really pure evil to begin with since Kami called his son pure evil despite him acting less evil.

But I will drop this subject now since we're going in circles.

edited 8th Mar '16 2:12:15 PM by Ramona122003

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#35402: Mar 8th 2016 at 3:48:12 PM

You're going in circles because you ignore the other person in the argument.

If you don't do that, you can move together towards a solution. Try it.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35403: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:07:44 PM

Piccolo Daimao is a Namekian demon because he is simultaneously a Namekian and a demon. The two are not mutually exclusive. Him being an alien was a reveal, not a retcon; it did not contradict anything previously established about the character.

The Nameless Namekian is an alien. He was sent to Earth to escape his dying planet, Namek. During his time on Earth, he became corrupted. He also sought to become God, but couldn't because his heart had evil inside it. He expelled the evil within himself in order to purify his soul and become God, and that evil became Piccolo Daimao; the evil demon king Piccolo.

Thus, Piccolo Daimao is both alien and demon. He is the evil half of the Namekian who became God. The one does not contradict the other.

edited 8th Mar '16 4:08:15 PM by TobiasDrake

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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#35404: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:11:21 PM

Also, it was never a retcon in the first place. When Toriyama made Piccolo, he actually did want him to be an alien.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#35405: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:13:05 PM

Namekian arms have the exact same pattern as Xenomorph arms.

Seriously, between Piccolo, Freeza and Cell, one can see Toriyama liked the design.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35406: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:14:03 PM

[up]

Huh. Well, I guess he does often think ahead on these things.

How far ahead did he plan the Goku is an Alien reveal? Was that something that came together around the time he decided to make Piccolo an alien, or did the two plots form independently of each other.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35407: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:15:56 PM

Around the time Raditz arrived.

Toriyama has stated in interviews that if he could change one thing about Dragon Ball, it's that he would have plotted Goku being an alien from the beginning.

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Eriorguez Since: Jun, 2009
#35408: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:20:09 PM

Toriyama probably watched the Superman movies that month as well...

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#35409: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:21:29 PM

[up][up] Nice to know he doesn't regret that reveal; quite the opposite in fact!

Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#35410: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:22:53 PM

[up][up][up] I wonder what would be different if he had.

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AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#35411: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:25:24 PM

Yeah, he more or less came up with Goku being an alien out of the blue. I mean, it made sense either way in retrospect, so it's not like Toriyama came up with some random BS nonsense that didn't fit the story. Goku's past was vague enough to make it where him being an alien worked.

As for Toriyama planning things out: I think Piccolo being an alien was really the only big time. He did plan that Vegeta would die. Vegeta and Nappa are introduced as if they were their own bosses, and Freeza was introduced to be their boss because the fans liked Vegeta too much. I don't know about whether the Ginyu Force or Goku going Super Saiyan or most of the rest of the Namek saga was planned out or not, but I do know Vegeta was temporarily killed off to mess with the fans, and Piccolo being revived was more than likely planned from the beginning, considering Toriyama says Piccolo is his favorite character. The Androids and Cell Saga was full blown improv, though.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35412: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:27:47 PM

Pretty sure the changing nature of the Android Saga was because he kept trying to please a close friend who also happened to be a former editor. So this person's opinion carried a lot of sway with him, for better or worse.

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#35413: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:28:34 PM

The Sorting Algorithm of Evil in the Android Saga was originally going to stop at 19 and 20.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#35414: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:30:17 PM

[up][up]

It was. I don't think he intended to do much with Freeza and King Cold, but when he introduced Androids 19 and 20, his friend told him they were too stupid looking. Then he made Androids 16, 17, and 18, but his friend told him they looked like punks. He made Cell, but Cell looked to much like a bug to the guy, so Cell turned Semi-Perfect, and apparently his big lips looked to stupid (which isn't wrong), so then we got Perfect Cell.

edited 8th Mar '16 4:30:28 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35415: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:37:20 PM

I did listened to everyone' arguments. I just don't agree with it. Big different.

Also please, link where it was ever said that Toriyama planned to make Piccolo an alien upon his introduction. And like I said, Piccolo was never called a Namekian demon, hybrid, or whatever.

Goku's past was just him being a monkey boy in the mountains. Him being an alien was never foreshadowed, except in the anime and that was a reference/nod to Alien. Goku was Sun Wukong before he was Superman.

edited 8th Mar '16 4:41:55 PM by Ramona122003

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#35416: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:38:03 PM

16 and 18 are two of the best characters in the series so I don't really mind the shift.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35417: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:44:01 PM

He only regrets not making Goku an alien from the start?

What about wasting everyone's time by making Gohan the hero and then changing his mind?

That's not a regret?

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35418: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:45:29 PM

[up][up][up]Piccolo might not have been called Namekian demon but that doesn't change anything Tobias said. And no claimed that he planned on Goku being an alien. Quite the opposite actually.

You say you were listening to other people but your post contradicts that.

[up]Assuming it's not just another "Toriyama said" he changed that because he planned on making Gohan the hero but changed his mind when he didn't think he was suited for it. If that's the case the only part I think he'd regret was initially framing him as a hero in the first place not backing away from it.

edited 8th Mar '16 4:47:30 PM by LSBK

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35419: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:52:26 PM

I did read his post. Doesn't change changed Piccolo was never called a Namekian demon or whatever. He was called a demon and it got retcon to him being an alien. I was also referring to another poster who said that Toriyama planned for Piccolo to be an alien so I asked for a link.

Also, it was claimed that Piccolo changed his species upon his rebirth, which he didn't. No such claim was ever made. Kami or no one else every said that Piccolo wasn't a demon. Being that Kami is Piccolo's other half, he would know that. Just like he would be the first to know about how evil Piccolo was or wasn't.

edited 8th Mar '16 4:56:14 PM by Ramona122003

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35420: Mar 8th 2016 at 4:53:31 PM

And Tobias explained why that wasn't a retcon, at least, not the way you're using the word. You just chose to ignore it.

edited 8th Mar '16 4:54:20 PM by LSBK

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#35421: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:00:00 PM

I lost track. What's the point of this argument again?

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35422: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:02:50 PM

I didn't ignore it. I addressed it directly in my post. He said nothing contradict Piccolo being a demon. Unless we go with the Namekian are a demonic race, how did the Nameless Namek releasing all his evil turned it into a demon instead of just being the embodiment of the Nameless Namek's evil. It sounds like a way to explain a retcon and still trying to make old information work. And Kami (aka God) is just a title. Kami didn't become an actual God.

edited 8th Mar '16 5:05:52 PM by Ramona122003

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35423: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:04:13 PM

[up][up]Talking about stuff I guess?

[up]But he didn't come up with a way for it to work. It just does. I mean, in the strictest sense it is a retcon but not the way (I assume) you're using the term.

Like, he said Piccolo Daimaou was a demon because he was the pure incarnation of all of someone's evil. That makes him a demon and nothing ever contradicted that. He was also a Namekian because it's later established he was the evil of a Namekian.

That seemed to be the gist of things.

edited 8th Mar '16 5:06:46 PM by LSBK

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#35424: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:07:20 PM

@Arha

The point is that people die when they are killed, unless you're killed by a Namekian Demon, at which point you're super dead because you don't even go to the afterlife.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35425: Mar 8th 2016 at 5:07:26 PM

I lost track. What's the point of this argument again?

This entire argument started because Ranma challenged Tobias' notion that characters who are evil due to their genetics were boring. I don't know why they're even talking about Demon King Piccolo.


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