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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35376: Mar 8th 2016 at 11:03:47 AM

Good Is Dumb. I don't know what you define as "saintly" but not living up to that does not mean that a person isn't good. Neither does "being a trickster" or whatever.

And it's been established that Goku can beat him. What's he going to do go out and conquer things until Goku stops him? He was obviously waiting until he was sure he was strong enough to kill Goku before he set his plans in motion. He says as much when he talks about why he developed the Makankosappo.

The dragon ball thing is honestly probably more of an oversight on Toriyama's part than any sign of goodness in Piccolo at the time.

edited 8th Mar '16 11:09:08 AM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35377: Mar 8th 2016 at 11:10:47 AM

So yeah. Frieza just being evil because I say he's evil is a huge mistake on Toriyama's part, as is Frost being evil because he's just another version of Frieza. As much as I like how Frost's methods are better (at least in my opinion), I hate that he went the easy route.

Sometimes, I feel like there are just plot points and concepts he creates without any other thoughts on what could be done with them. I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

THIS IS WHY YOU NEED TO PLAN THINGS OUT LONG TERM.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35378: Mar 8th 2016 at 11:12:25 AM

I like how they decided to doubly subvert the whole "our universe is really the evil one" thing but I wish they did it with someone else. The Frieza analogue is the least interesting way to go about it.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35379: Mar 8th 2016 at 11:15:11 AM

Piccolo is a reincarnation of Daimao, but something changed in him during the reincarnation process. Gohan mentions when Piccolo's training him that Goku already considers him not to be as bad as he used to be, based only on their encounter in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

Meanwhile, God acknowledges that there's something peculiar about Piccolo's reincarnation. It was established in the aftermath of Daimao's arc that those killed by a demon do not pass on to the afterlife but are instead trapped drifting forever between life and death. That's why it was so important to revive Krillin, Kame-sennin, and Chiaotzu: without the Dragon Balls, their souls could never know peace.

Raditz and Goku, however, were able to pass on to the afterlife after being killed with the Makankosappo because Piccolo is no longer a demon. He's still an asshole due to continuity of identity from when he was Pure Evil Incarnate but his reincarnation has resulted in him becoming a three-dimensional living being. Gohan could redeem him because he was now capable of caring about others, whereas Daimao could never have agreed to work with Goku or decided to train his son.

edited 8th Mar '16 11:15:58 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35380: Mar 8th 2016 at 11:15:25 AM

Without a doubt.

I both found the whole Main dragon ball universe is the evil one concept to be both kinda funny, but also really annoying for how people were pushing it, but now, we've got something comparatively worse.

One Strip! One Strip!
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35381: Mar 8th 2016 at 11:26:47 AM

Power level wise, there was only like a 10 point different between them. Goku was just barely more powerful than Piccolo and Piccolo is smart enough to make up that different with his brains and not underestimating Goku again. Goku also had a nice family he could have taking advantage of, yet he sat on his butt for five years and did nothing. Also, Dragon Ball have shown a lot of villains who do evil things, just cause, yet Piccolo never did that.

Good Is Dumb doesn't really explain why Kami is such a mischievous troll. I never said Kami wasn't good. I said he never acted purely good since he supposedly had no evil within him.

But we are getting off subject. The original point is that Piccolo Jr has far more excuses to be evil, then Frieza. His genes made him unnaturally cruel, but he wasn't born pure evil. His own father proves that by showing some level of care towards his son when he went out and dragged his body out of the wreckage of Namek, while Frieza couldn't care to have his father brought back to life.

@Tobias. Those particulars you mentioned weren't stated until after Raditz, not during the 23rd tournament where everyone said Piccolo was the Demon King reborn and was just as evil as his father. Goku at the tournament never said that Piccolo was less evil. He actually said he was evil, but he could handle him if he cause trouble. Goku probably didn't conclude that Piccolo wasn't as evil as his father until he had his family since he never bother to attack them and stood out of trouble.

What made Piccolo less evil is up in the air, but that doesn't change the point that Piccolo being the reincarnation of someone who was supposedly pure evil makes his chances of being evil much higher than Frieza's.

In any case, we can't say either way rather this development is good or bad since we don't have the entire story. Until we can see the bigger picture and know how the plot unfolds, it's impossible to say if this weakened the story. You can say the twist is lame or awesome, but how it effects the actual story as a whole is up in the air.

edited 8th Mar '16 11:29:57 AM by Ramona122003

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#35382: Mar 8th 2016 at 12:14:43 PM

the whole Main dragon ball universe is the evil one concept,

I notice a lot of people didn't like this idea. I'm curious why.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35383: Mar 8th 2016 at 12:34:53 PM

[up]

You know, I'm not really sure. I guess it's weird since Mirror Universe, while kinda cliche, is a classic narrative scenario.

I can't really say why I dislike it.

edited 8th Mar '16 12:37:23 PM by HandsomeRob

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MyssaRei Since: Feb, 2010
#35384: Mar 8th 2016 at 12:37:48 PM

[up]

It's because a lot of people are bothered at the implication that the setting people have been following for the past 25+ years is implied (even in jest) to be the bad universe. Which is strange, as if it was really the case it would make the accomplishments of the heroes even MORE impressive.

edited 8th Mar '16 12:38:24 PM by MyssaRei

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35385: Mar 8th 2016 at 12:39:40 PM

Yes.

That's it exactly.

Though considering that guys like Beerus, Majin Boo, Frieza, and King Piccolo were rampaging about without anyone to stop them, I can understand that, but yes, it does bother me that people tried to push Main universe is evil on us.

One Strip! One Strip!
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#35386: Mar 8th 2016 at 12:45:52 PM

Vegeta's a walking contradiction of that entire concept. So is Piccolo, who is literally the reincarnation of distilled absolute evil. So is Tien, who made a choice to turn his back on his assassin dreams, and Majin Buu, an Eldritch Horror who learned a better way through friendship forged with Mr. Satan. Dragon Ball is big on the idea that evil is a choice and people can choose to walk away from it.

In hindsight, this makes it funnier that Goku didn't become evil just because he was dropped on his head. [lol]

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35387: Mar 8th 2016 at 12:51:31 PM

If we go by Minus it seems to be a mixture of his mother's kind heart and being raised by Gohan that made Goku good. Although him hitting his head may of helped.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35388: Mar 8th 2016 at 12:52:21 PM

@Tobias. Those particulars you mentioned weren't stated until after Raditz, not during the 23rd tournament where everyone said Piccolo was the Demon King reborn and was just as evil as his father. Goku at the tournament never said that Piccolo was less evil. He actually said he was evil, but he could handle him if he cause trouble. Goku probably didn't conclude that Piccolo wasn't as evil as his father until he had his family since he never bother to attack them and stood out of trouble.

What made Piccolo less evil is up in the air, but that doesn't change the point that Piccolo being the reincarnation of someone who was supposedly pure evil makes his chances of being evil much higher than Frieza's.

In any case, we can't say either way rather this development is good or bad since we don't have the entire story. Until we can see the bigger picture and know how the plot unfolds, it's impossible to say if this weakened the story. You can say the twist is lame or awesome, but how it effects the actual story as a whole is up in the air.

It's really not that up in the air. We know exactly why Piccolo gained a capacity for good: God outright points out in his conversation with Popo that those Piccolo kills are going to the afterlife rather than being trapped between worlds like a demon's victims. That Piccolo is no longer a demon is actually pointed out by the one person that would know better than anyone. Mechanically, Piccolo is a different type of lifeform than he was before his reincarnation.

That Piccolo's capacity for good didn't come up until after the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai doesn't mean he didn't have it then. Goku's acknowledgement that he's less evil didn't happen at the tournament, but it did happen between then and the next time he would meet Piccolo, which means he only had one meeting to base his judgment on.

edited 8th Mar '16 12:53:06 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35389: Mar 8th 2016 at 1:05:17 PM

He was a different type of life form after the fight with Raditz. That is when Kami noted that Piccolo was different. Three years ago, everyone agreed he was pure evil despite him never acting as bad as his father and Kami was ready to kill himself to stop Piccolo.

The Piccolo of the 23rd tournament barely acted more evil than he did five years later, unless your name was Goku. Meaning he wasn't that evil to begin with, but everyone, including the person who created him, still classified him as pure evil for no reason, or he was still evil enough to send people's souls into limbo.

Goku only had one encounter, yes, but he knew King Piccolo's character. That King Piccolo would used and kill his family. Piccolo Jr never does. So Goku would say he's less evil.

In the series, it's never said why Piccolo is different and Kami says he isn't the same person from five years ago.

edited 8th Mar '16 1:12:05 PM by Ramona122003

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35390: Mar 8th 2016 at 1:08:19 PM

[up]There is no "despite" there. His stated goals was to kill Goku and take over the world, things he was actively working towards and we have no reason to believe he wasn't going to act on. That's why Kami was willing to sacrifice himself. People were treating him like a major threat because he was presenting himself as such and legitimately was a major threat at the time.

Perhaps the reevaluated him after the tournament ended and his lack of activity but I'm really not understanding why you're insisting on acting like he wasn't evil. You don't have to be "pure evil" to be evil. It probably just took a bit of time for them to get that...while still understanding he was evil.

edited 8th Mar '16 1:11:43 PM by LSBK

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35391: Mar 8th 2016 at 1:15:00 PM

I never said he wasn't evil. I only said he never came across as pure evil since there were many things he could have done to kill Goku in that five year timeskip. He did literally nothing despite Goku's family being prime targets.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35392: Mar 8th 2016 at 1:17:22 PM

And we already went through that. He was very clearly waiting until he was sure he could kill Goku. Not stupidly attacking Goku before he's ready does not somehow show he's less evil. You seem to be equating Pure Evil with Stupid Evil for some reason.

Edit: And he wasn't "doing nothing" he was training so that he could eventually kill Goku and take over the world. He says he came up with the Makankosappo for that very reason during his training.

edited 8th Mar '16 1:19:56 PM by LSBK

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35393: Mar 8th 2016 at 1:21:56 PM

There was literally a ten point difference in their power, making them all but equal. Along with that, he could have used Goku's family as leverage, just like King Piccolo did with Tien.

If he was really this pure evil being, he would be using all the dirty tricks in the book to win, not just making an energy attack that takes forever to charge.

edited 8th Mar '16 1:26:54 PM by Ramona122003

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35394: Mar 8th 2016 at 1:24:32 PM

You think he knew that? He seems liked he wanted to go with "overwhelming" advantage to me. You're also assuming he knew were Goku was or that Goku wouldn't feel him coming. You're stretching a bit here.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35395: Mar 8th 2016 at 1:28:05 PM

He was a different type of life form after the fight with Raditz. That is when Kami noted that Piccolo was different. Three years ago, everyone agreed he was pure evil despite him never acting as bad as his father and Kami was ready to kill himself to stop Piccolo.

A change of heart does not cause a person to become a different species. There is only one point in the series where Piccolo could have ceased to be a demon, and that's when he reincarnated.

That nobody noticed he wasn't a demon until the first time he killed someone and they got to go to the afterlife doesn't mean he was a demon before they noticed. Goku and Raditz going to the afterlife proves that Piccolo ceasing to be a demon happened before he killed them. Gohan cannot be the catalyst for Piccolo somehow changing species.

The Piccolo of the 23rd tournament barely acted more evil than he did five years later, unless your name was Goku. Meaning he wasn't that evil to begin with, but everyone, including the person who created him, still classified him as pure evil for no reason, or he was still evil enough to send people's souls into limbo.

Goku only had one encounter, yes, but he knew King Piccolo's character. That King Piccolo would used and kill his family. Piccolo Jr never does. So Goku would say he's less evil.

That's putting words in Goku's mouth. The facts are: Goku met Piccolo one time after his reincarnation and after that one time, he told Gohan that Piccolo wasn't as evil as he was before. Regardless of what convinced him of that, Goku was acknowledging Piccolo's capacity for good before Piccolo ever even met Gohan.

Between Goku's acknowledgement of Piccolo's capacity for good predating Gohan redeeming him and the proven fact that Piccolo no longer has demonic features, all evidence points to Piccolo's reincarnation changing him on a fundamental level. Therefore, his capacity for good does nothing to suggest that Daimao could have been redeemed. Daimao was pure evil, while Piccolo was only normal evil.

Also, there may be some disconnect here because you seem to be simultaneously trying to convince me that Piccolo was still Pure Evil after reincarnating while also arguing with LSBK that Piccolo was less evil than Daimao. Which is it?

edited 8th Mar '16 1:29:46 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35396: Mar 8th 2016 at 1:28:52 PM

He can sense energy, so why wouldn't he know where Goku was and how strong he is. And I think Piccolo would keep some tabs on the person he wants to kill.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35397: Mar 8th 2016 at 1:32:37 PM

[up][up]For the record, I'm not denying he was less evil. Just that he was still pretty evil but not Stupid Evil.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35398: Mar 8th 2016 at 1:35:10 PM

That is an assumption that he was different creature, not a demon, upon his rebirth, which no one said. Any changes in Piccolo wasn't acknowledged until Raditz's death. Before, everyone including Kami agreed he was bad and King Piccolo returns. We also don't know when Goku acknowledged that Piccolo wasn't as evil, just that it happened during the five years of peace since Goku agreed with Kami that Piccolo was pure evil.

If Piccolo was truly not a demon when he was reborn I think Kami of all people would sene it and didn't have to wait for Piccolo to kill someone to know.

Here is the thing. You said King Piccolo could never be good because he was pure evil. I said I don't think that is completely true since Piccolo Jr was also said to be pure evil, but never acted as bad as his father. He is also the same evil that came out of Kami, yet he turned good by choice. Why was King Piccolo this creature of irredeemable evil, yet his son, who is said to be the same person isn't. Could it be possible that he became less evil after being forced to grow up again and being humble by Goku, maybe. The series never says. My point is that maybe King Piccolo did have a choice on how evil he wanted to act and maybe could have been redeemed like his son, since the reason why Piccolo Jr is less evil is never explained. He's just isn't as evil.

edited 8th Mar '16 1:43:49 PM by Ramona122003

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#35399: Mar 8th 2016 at 1:59:55 PM

Ehm, I'd like to remind you guys that Piccolo was never a demon. He was a half of a Namekian with a delusion of grandeur.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#35400: Mar 8th 2016 at 2:00:49 PM

Piccolo Jr. was assumed to be pure evil based on the fact that he was a reincarnation of Piccolo Daimao, who is pure evil. Literally, Daimao is pure evil. He is the evil half of the Nameless Namekian. He was born from the Nameless Namekian's Evil while all the Nameless Namekian's Good became God.

Being humbled by Goku wouldn't cause him to spontaneously change species. That is what I'm getting at. That's not a thing that people do when they undergo Character Development. No amount of effort on Tien's part will cause him to suddenly shift to Saiyan and be able to match Vegeta and Goku. No amount of intelligence and wisdom will cause Bulma to become a Kai. No matter how much of an asshole Vegeta might be, he is under no risk of turning into a Frieza-type alien.

Piccolo ceasing to be a demon isn't something that happens just because he had a good fight and underwent physiological metamorphosis. He was a demon because he was literally half a person, and he ceased to be a demon when he became a complete person. There is only one point in the series where this could have occurred. It's not Gohan. It's not the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. It's his reincarnation.

[up] He was a Namekian demon. His offspring were twisted and demonic rather than being Namekians because of his nature, and his victims' souls were trapped between worlds. That he was an alien does not change the fact that he was also the evil half of God, twisted and demonic from being comprised of pure evil.

edited 8th Mar '16 2:02:57 PM by TobiasDrake

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