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Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35301: Mar 6th 2016 at 6:56:30 PM

Saw the episode for myself. I am happy about Piccolo's fight. He had Frost dead to rights before he cheated. As Piccolo observed Frost underestimated him because he wasn't as strong as him. Although it is kind of annoying that Vegeta ordered Piccolo to forfeit so he can personally wipe the floor with Frost. Then again, given what a arrogant SOB Frost is even when he's caught, I can't object that it will feel really good having Vegeta beat the crud out of him.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35302: Mar 6th 2016 at 7:15:47 PM

I liked that Piccolo's antenna lightning was brought back.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35303: Mar 6th 2016 at 7:25:22 PM

That's from early Dragon Ball?

Moves don't often get brought back in this series.

Well...unless Goku uses them.

edited 6th Mar '16 7:25:57 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#35304: Mar 6th 2016 at 7:33:20 PM

[up][up][up] That's the only reason I'm fine with Piccolo forfeiting for Vegeta to take over, he wants to see Frost get his shit pushed in too.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35305: Mar 6th 2016 at 7:46:28 PM

I also find it funny that Vegeta's lampshades that no matter the universe, Frieza can never be a good person. Almost like he was talking to the fans.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35306: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:12:19 PM

[up][up][up]I mean, Piccolo isn't from early Dragon Ball, but whatever.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#35307: Mar 6th 2016 at 9:35:50 PM

I think Vegeta is just racist against people who look like Freeza. That, or extremely self-aware. Probably the latter.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35308: Mar 6th 2016 at 9:51:03 PM

How is racist to want to beat up a scumbag for cheating? Him looking like the former boss he despises doesn't help, but it doesn't make it racist.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#35309: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:02:50 PM

oh, no. I'm just joking that them assuming Frost was evil just because he looks like Freeza was kinda racist. You know, using the Always Chaotic Evil trope. Which turns out to apply in this case!

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#35310: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:05:49 PM

Frieza and Cold were apparently both far stronger than the rest of their race. I'm willing to bet they were far eviler as well.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35311: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:15:55 PM

I see. Sorry for the overreaction. I just tend to hate when racism is thrown around willy-nilly even in fiction.

I am almost certain that is the case too. It seems as far as Frieza's race is concern, those born with high levels of power are cursed with high levels of cruelty.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35312: Mar 6th 2016 at 10:40:34 PM

[up]x6 Piccoro Jr. is from Late "Early" Dragon Ball, but I was talking about the electric antennae...which I don't even remember.

[up]There's everything wrong with a little fantastical racism.

edited 6th Mar '16 10:41:44 PM by randomness4

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35313: Mar 6th 2016 at 11:19:02 PM

Thinking about it Frost's good guy act doesn't really surprise me in retrospect since he's whole thing, 'I'm fighting for the children', always came off as Narm to me and a bit forced. Every time I heard it, I kept thinking about the trope: Think of the Children!.

edited 6th Mar '16 11:19:50 PM by Ramona122003

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#35314: Mar 7th 2016 at 3:18:00 AM

It'd be interesting if Universe 6's Jaco equivalent is a Freeza Clan who's trying to expose Frost for the villain he is.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35315: Mar 7th 2016 at 3:27:49 AM

Piccolo used Antenna Lightning for the first (and only) time as a counter-attack after Goku Superman punched him using the foot-powered Kamehameha in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#35316: Mar 7th 2016 at 4:56:23 AM

So Frost is not so much Good Freeza as a smart one. Huh.

And shouldn't Goku defeat be nullified as well?

Frost entire existence looks suspiciously like it's there just to give Vegeta a win against "Freeza".

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#35317: Mar 7th 2016 at 7:38:41 AM

Gohan also does a great job summarizing everything he's learned after a couple decades of being dragged into super fights. "I'll try to do what I can, but if anything happens, we're going to NEED dad's power." Kind of undermined by the fact that Gohan was more powerful than Goku in the Cell and late Buu arcs, however.

And entirely undermined by the fact that Gohan's being written to not try at all to do what he can. This is probably something he should have said after slacking off and subsequently deciding to resume training in the F arc, not immediately before it.

Saiga: Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. Sure is 'clever' to make a twist by repeating something you've done over and over and making the story more boring as a result when you actually had an interesting situation you could have explored.

And to make matters worse, this has been coming up a lot lately as it's the common defense for Toriyama pulling these "twists".

Aw, I thought it was a neat reference to the Freeza Clan's Ki Blast hold in Xenoverse this whole time.

No offence, but how could you actually believe this? Why would the main anime series base a major plot point on an incredibly minor detail from a recent video game? Completely different people work on these things.

Frost entire existence looks suspiciously like it's there just to give Vegeta a win against "Freeza".

Then again, so did Freeza coming back in RF and defeating Goku. Which is the biggest "dubya tee eff" about this whole sequence: the reason Vegeta didn't get the win on Freeza in RF is because that was super predictable and what the fans wanted. Although the fact that Vegeta would screw it up somehow was also predictable, because that's always happened, leading to a situation where Toriyama tried to make it surprising and subversive when either result would have been predicted by one half of the fanbase.

This looks like it would just be the same situation. Many people are already thinking this is Vegeta's victory over "Freeza", if Toriyama is setting this up for a subversion then it's just going to be RF again which feels completely pointless. But if this is about giving Vegeta a victory over "Freeza" why bother? The much better opportunity was already passed up earlier, this won't have anything close to the same narrative weight. Maybe Toriyama is just trying to appease fans without wanting Vegeta to beat the real Freeza for realsies.

The only way I see this going in a direction that isn't really predictable is if they don't fight conclusively and the crap with Hit confronting Frost interrupts this. In which case why bother when it could have just interrupted Piccolo vs Frost?

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35318: Mar 7th 2016 at 8:18:41 AM

No offence, but how could you actually believe this? Why would the main anime series base a major plot point on an incredibly minor detail from a recent video game? Completely different people work on these things.

I dropped Super before the Battle of Gods stuff happened, so all I had to go on was what everyone else was alluding too in the fight. Plus, I wasn't the first one to bring up the Ki Blast Hold, so that's another thing. If I did keep watching, I wouldn't have made the same assumption.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35319: Mar 7th 2016 at 8:49:29 AM

It's not really a common defense. Some people like when something unexpected happens. Would the story be better if Frost really was a good person, I don't know. Unlike the movies where we have an entire story in 90 minutes, I can't say one way or another if the twist with Frost is good in the long run.

I can only give my opinion and I personally love it. I don't care if Frost is Frieza 2.0. For months everyone was saying U6 is the good universe and U7 was run by doechbags. Then we have Frost who was build up as this Nice Guy and the anime took it further by making him seem like Superman. The Frost is a nice, noble person was rubbed thicker than hair gel. Then we learned Frost played everyone, even the cast, for chumps. We wanted to see a good version of Frieza so much that we played right into his game. Then we have Vegeta play the part of Toriyama, telling us that no matter the universe, Frieza can never be a good person.

Frost is also a different kind of villain for the series. He isn't a Card-Carrying Villain who's evil and wears it like a bumper sticker. He built his entire empire on being the universe's savior, gained the loyalty and love of others to fight and die by his side, and got the children of the people he indirectly murdered hugging him and calling him a hero, while he sells their planet to the highest bidder. He was the puppet master and the universe was his. He even had the God of Destruction on his string. He's a cold-hearted fiend who is intelligent and ruthless. If he wasn't a Frieza clone, most would call him a good villain.

It's brilliant and if comes off as an excuse, fine by me.

edited 7th Mar '16 9:03:32 AM by Ramona122003

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35320: Mar 7th 2016 at 9:02:45 AM

Sidestepping the Most Evil Pissing Contest.

You do realize he's a different person now than he was then right? And I'm pretty sure his last tearful confession to Goku was supposed to show that the "I don't care about the others Saiyans" bit was a lie he was telling himself.

Vegeta's contributions to the Saiyan extermination undermine any possibility that he really cared his race on anything more than an abstract level. He appreciates his genetics. He understands his history. He bestows a grudge upon Goku with his final words. But on an individual level, he doesn't give two shits about any Saiyan other than himself until he undergoes his Character Development in the Cell arc.

The only time the Saiyan genocide ever seemed to bother him was when he was dying at Goku's feet, and even that was less about the tragic plight of the Saiyans and more about trying to impress upon Goku the importance of abandoning his sense of mercy and killing Frieza with extreme prejudice.

He actually says killing everyone on Earth was too much, which is why he even teamed up with Goku. He wanted to rule over humans and you can't rule a planet of corpses.

This is accurate. Piccolo Daimao had every intention of ruling a planet of corpses. In addition to his only law being the absence of laws and encouraging everyone to spread chaos and murder each other, he was also going to hold a lottery every year to pick a city to be destroyed for no reason. His stated reason was so that everyone would live under the shadow of knowing that even at their luckiest, they would have less than 50 years to live.

Piccolo Daimao had no intention of ruling the planet forever. His rulership would have been a never-ending enactment of The Purge mixed with the gradual genocide of the entire human race. That he was even capable of acknowledging the annihilation of all humanity as a bad thing post-reincarnation demonstrates what Goku was talking about: that he's not as bad as he was before.

If he was anything like his father he wouldn't care about winning fairly or even humiliating Goku. The second King Piccolo though he was in danger, he took Tien hostage. He also had his children kill martial artists wholesale on the off-chance of one of the knowing the Evil Containment Wave. Yet Piccolo chose to fight Goku on his terms and didn't cheat when he believed he was in danger. If he was truly pragmatic as you claim, he would have killed Goku after the tournament when he was weak or fire at his friends to distract him. There was no pragmatic reason for Piccolo to go through the tournament and fight Goku at his best. It's the opposite.

He couldn't have killed Goku after the tournament. Goku was given a Senzu in the aftermath while Piccolo was still prone in the dirt. Piccolo only got his Senzu after Goku was recovered and, by that point, Goku had already beaten him.

Piccolo only came close to beating Goku in the first place due to a well-placed sucker-punch when Goku let his guard down during the ten-count. That kind of luck can't be relied upon as a battle plan; he knew he was beaten and retreated to train for the next rematch.

So...I'm only now realising that Vegeta is literally jeopardising their chances in the tournament so he can stroke his own ego.

Wouldn't be the first time. He already cost his side a fighter when he got Majin Buu disqualified with the written test. He almost cost them Goku too.

You know, maybe Toriyama should have actually had Piccolo use the proper (two handed Makankosappo / Special Beam Canon), because the one handed version is somewhat iconic. Then again, maybe he shouldn't have just had him use the technique once and then never bother with it again either.

He did during the fight with Nappa. He just didn't call his attack, so Toei didn't notice.

Regarding the Frost Reveal

Put me down for disappointed too. The fact that he was a good guy was, in and of itself, a fantastic twist that played with expectations. This Untwist isn't clever, it just makes the previous twist a waste of time. It turns out Frost is exactly what we all assumed he was when we first saw him with nothing interesting or special about him in any way.

"The guy who looks exactly like Frieza is basically EXACTLY LIKE FRIEZA!!!" isn't a twist. It's only surprising because so much groundwork was laid to suggest something compelling and different was going to happen.

edited 7th Mar '16 9:03:58 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#35321: Mar 7th 2016 at 9:03:05 AM

Every place I usually go for Super isn't updated to the recent episode. :(

No word on when the dub's coming either.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#35322: Mar 7th 2016 at 9:13:57 AM

DBH God Mission 7 Opening:

edited 7th Mar '16 9:14:15 AM by Rinsankajugin

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35323: Mar 7th 2016 at 9:16:18 AM

For the record when I said Piccolo should have killed Goku after the tournament, I meant he shouldn't have entered in the first place. He could have waited and hide his energy until Goku won his last match and the tournament. Then, when he's celebrating, blindside him while he's weak and tired. Problem solve. Goku is dead. And Piccolo may have sucker punch him, but Goku dropped his guard.

I also disagree about people thinking Frost was evil when we first saw him. Most figured he would most likely be a good or at least neutral counterpart to Frieza. No one thought he would be evil since we just had Frieza even if Super didn't retell the movies. Why do think people feel betrayed and blindsided by this if it was so expected. The most common evil U6 fighter was almost always Hit and Vados.

Soble, I watch Super here: http://www.dragonballepisodes.tv

edited 7th Mar '16 9:19:31 AM by Ramona122003

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#35324: Mar 7th 2016 at 9:30:21 AM

[up][up]I like that Heroes skips the Pretense and doesn't even include Buu or Piccolo in the tournament scene. tongue

So I'm expecting a Super Saiyan God Gotenks and a Legendary Super Saiyan God Legendary Super Saiyan Broly by the end of the year.

edited 7th Mar '16 9:31:19 AM by Lionheart0

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35325: Mar 7th 2016 at 9:42:47 AM

Won't lie, I would be piss at a Super Saiyan God anything for Broly. One of the key factors of becoming a Super Saiyan God is that you need to be righteous and Broly is about as righteous as Frieza. Also, you need five other Saiyans for the ritual or God training. I can't see that happening. I don't care they give Super Saiyan 3 away likes it's candy, but Broly shouldn't get Super Saiyan God.

I'm also annoyed Buu never even got a chance to fight. He's one of the strongest characters and they do nothing with him except treat him as a gag or subject him The Worf Effect. Piccolo may have lost his fight, but he gave one hell of a showing.

I guess next time.


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