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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35176: Mar 6th 2016 at 12:41:00 AM

I don't speak Japanese, but based on what I saw: it looked like Champa was angry at Vados for recruiting such a bad guy, with Vados responding that he wanted the best in their universe and didn't say anything about their moral quality.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35177: Mar 6th 2016 at 12:44:50 AM

Can't wait to see this episode for myself. Between this and this week's chapter of One Piece, it has been a good week.

hardcorefakes coolest_guy from probably America Since: Oct, 2015 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
coolest_guy
#35178: Mar 6th 2016 at 12:44:52 AM

[up][up]That's a bit hypocritical, coming from a guy who also kills without remorse. And one who apparently does not care about galactic peace.

EDIT: One Piece is still going on??? I feel like I shouldn't be surprised, but I am anyway.

edited 6th Mar '16 12:46:55 AM by hardcorefakes

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35179: Mar 6th 2016 at 12:51:15 AM

I guess for Champa the breaking up point is that Frost is a mass-murderer who hide behind good deeds and charity work. Also, as a God of Destruction it is his job to destroy planets and he's far less petty than Beerus.

And yes, One Piece is still going strong and had one hell of a chapter this week.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35180: Mar 6th 2016 at 12:56:30 AM

One Piece is like 3/4 done. At most.

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#35181: Mar 6th 2016 at 5:46:18 AM

I know everyone is disappointed with Frost being evil but I think this new saga is really shaping up to be awesome because of stuff like that. Just last week I thought Frost was the ultimate good guy, so when it was revealed that he was not only evil but also a two-faced lying douche it made me feel a real kind of pissed off that I haven't felt a villain in a while. It also made me feel sorry for Team Universe 6 since it seems they also had no idea Frost was evil (aside from Vados), especially Cabba when he remembered when he worked with Frost once.

It's a double twist that hit me in the gut in the right places, and it seems he'll get his comeuppance pretty soon.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#35182: Mar 6th 2016 at 5:57:12 AM

I think it's a twist that was unexpected purely because it's a worse idea than what we got, so that's disappointing. Subverting people's expectations won't carry a story.

No one really expected Frost to be a super cool guy until Super made it sound like he was, so it's not fair to blame the fans either. This just makes the mirrored universes seem a lot smaller if they have to be similar on something like their resident's Freeza. One Freeza was boring enough.

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#35183: Mar 6th 2016 at 5:57:47 AM

Sorry,but comeuppance by Vegeta telling Piccolo to forfeit so he could have a go isn't my thing.Poor Big Green.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#35184: Mar 6th 2016 at 6:11:01 AM

I feel like Frost still using poison but being a genuinely good guy who felt like he needed to win to get Champa's help would've been far more interesting than what we got.

Also, can I just say that I loved Chi-Chi running to her husband, worried that he was dead, and them lovingly embracing?

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#35185: Mar 6th 2016 at 6:23:38 AM

When I say comeuppance, I'm not talking about Vegeta. I'm pretty sure Hit's gonna land the final blow on Frost.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35186: Mar 6th 2016 at 6:51:47 AM

Actually, the idea that Frost was good has been floating around for months, not just a week or two. The manga hinted at Frost being a good guy because Piccolo couldn't sense any evil within him and the U6 Saiyans being heroes. Last week's episode only confirmed what most people suspected. So, this twist has been building for awhile from a marketing point of view. There is also this underline feeling fans had about U6 being a Mirror Universe, making fans more willing to believe in a good version of Frieza.

Personally, I was questioning Frost's goodness when they called him the Empire of U6. Still, didn't believe he would be like this and it's so Toriyama that it's funny. He knew fans would be expecting a good version of Frieza after he introduced the U6 Saiyans and fans wanted to have a good member of Frieza's race. So, he made Frost evil, knowing the fandom wouldn't expect it at all, especially since they wouldn't think he would make a color-swap version of Frieza. Even funnier, everyone was so focused on Hit being evil that Frost went right under their radar.

Thinking about it, I don't mind this twist because Frost is a different kind of villain than we are used to in the series. Until Frost, all the villains have been openingly evil. They did stuff For the Evulz and had no higher motive other than to kill or conquer. Frost, however, is a devil in plain sight. He starts wars that murder millions and sweep in and play hero, getting the entire universe to love and adore him as this great savior and expanding his empire because people truly believe he's a great guy. Unlike Frieza who ruled by fear, Frost ruled by false love. Basically, he took over the universe because people gave it to him since he's a hero, all the while manipulating others in the background and being so good at it that not even someone like Piccolo could sense him. Frost is probably one of the deepest villains in the series from that perspective. He really is an evil Mr. Satan.

edited 6th Mar '16 7:03:29 AM by Ramona122003

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#35187: Mar 6th 2016 at 6:57:09 AM

I wasn't just talking about the recent episodes, but stuff in the manga as well. It was made out that he wasn't evil very early on.

Also it's kind of silly to talk about what the fans are doing unless you're talking about the Japanese fans, who typically have very different responses from western fans and they'd be the only ones Toriyama is using for his inspiration.

Anyway, as I said, just being subversive isn't good enough. This is one example with just going with what was expecting would be better, we don't need another evil Freeza right after the revival of regular evil Freeza.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35188: Mar 6th 2016 at 7:10:27 AM

Japanese fans wanted a good version of Frieza's race too and they were expecting one since they saw the U6 Saiyans were good people and Piccolo sensed no evil from Frost. And yes, I was talking about the manga when I said that is what people were expecting. Last week's episode just confirmed what those people thought was the case. This was never just a western thing.

That is fine that you would have been happier with a good version of Frieza, especially since we had Resurrection 'F', but Toriyama decided to mess with fans and have Frost be evil since they were expecting him to be good for several reasons. Toriyama is a troll.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35189: Mar 6th 2016 at 7:47:57 AM

I wish Toriyama had gone against his instincts on this one. He had a chance to do something really different, and he botched it because he had to do the opposite of what people wanted.

That seems strange too, since he created Frieza because Vegeta grew popular. If it's the case that he does the opposite of what the fans want, you'd think he'd have killed Vegeta off sooner.

Yes, he did kill him on Namek because people didn't want him to die, but only after creating someone more evil.

One Strip! One Strip!
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35190: Mar 6th 2016 at 7:59:21 AM

I'm really failing to see how Frost could be called morally better than Freeza.

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35191: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:06:18 AM

Frieza would've existed regardless of Vegeta since they still needed to go to Namek to wish their friends back. That was hinted at before Goku fought Vegeta.

He does give into fan demand when he wants to, but he generally does the opposite, like having Super Saiyan God having a very simple design, Goku losing to Beerus despite the power, Vegeta not getting to kill Frieza, ect. This is just another example of Toriyama doing whatever the heck he want. For better or worse.

edited 6th Mar '16 8:06:57 AM by Ramona122003

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#35192: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:08:37 AM

I certainly have no issues with this reveal.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35193: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:24:35 AM

I will admit, Frost is kinda smarter than Frieza. Tyrants eventually have people who want to take them down (though up until Goku came along, that was never an issue for Frieza) but the way Frost does things, even if someone stronger comes along, he'd have a whole bunch of people he's helped leaping to his defence.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35194: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:28:08 AM

So why didn't Piccolo sense any malice then? Is he just really good at hiding it?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35195: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:32:27 AM

Maybe he's just used to Frieza's malice being directed straight at them. I mean, most of the time, he was trying to murder the fuck out of everyone.

I suppose though it's just as you said: Frost is good at hiding his true nature, which, from a thematic stand point, goes pretty well with what we know of him.

Come to think of it, most villains in Dragonball don't deliberately hide that they are villains. They are pretty open about that shit.

One Strip! One Strip!
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#35196: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:36:12 AM

His poker face is real.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35197: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:52:24 AM

I'm still on the Super filler between BOG and ROF. Just watched the episode about Pan being born and...well.

Toei's Chi-Chi is in prime bitchiness, Toei's Goku is in prime irresponsibility. Not only is this an entire episode dedicated to Goku belligerently abandoning his family as Chi-Chi all but begs him to be a halfway decent grandfather, but he lies about throwing a surprise party for Pan in order to hide his plans to go pursue his hobby on the other side of the universe and then uses Goten as a human shield when Chi-Chi finds out.

Chi-Chi isn't any better, throwing a massive fit over Mr. Satan and Gohan wanting Pan to grow up and be a martial artist and somehow kicking them out of their own home - all without any input from Videl, either, whose opinion Chi-Chi only asks after she's already barricaded the door so Gohan and Mr. Satan can't come back in.

Filler like this is exactly why anime fans hate these two characters.

Gohan also does a great job summarizing everything he's learned after a couple decades of being dragged into super fights. "I'll try to do what I can, but if anything happens, we're going to NEED dad's power." Kind of undermined by the fact that Gohan was more powerful than Goku in the Cell and late Buu arcs, however.

edited 6th Mar '16 8:53:31 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#35198: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:52:40 AM

This really makes me think about when an author (or Mangaka in this case) needs to stick to what they know, and when they need to break away from their own habits (or in other words, subvert themselves instead of subverting the audience).

Do you think Toriyama even sees what he tossed away by doing this. There was some great story telling potential that was wasted. I know that it's his story, and he should be free to more or less tell it as he wants, but he also needs to consider when he should let things develop naturally as well.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#35199: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:55:20 AM

Toei's Goku is a worse father than TFS's because Toei's Goku is smart enough to know better.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#35200: Mar 6th 2016 at 8:56:12 AM

And gets more opportunities to be terrible than manga Goku.


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