TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35051: Mar 5th 2016 at 2:34:46 PM

His mercy made perfect sense to me too. He didn't spare Frieza because of Cruel Mercy like the first time. He spared Frieza because he wanted to fight him again. He was greatly impress that Frieza got so powerful within such a short amount of time and he's aware he only won because Frieza didn't train his new form. He wanted a rematch where he fights Frieza after he trains more to control his power. It's so Goku.

Super changes Goku's reason slightly in this regard. He spares Frieza more because he saw him as too pathetic to kill, calling him an idiot for coming to Earth and not mastering his powers. I still finds this within Goku's character so I don't mind the change.

Really, the only enemy Goku showed no mercy to was Cell. Yakon killed himself more or less. Even with Buu, he showed mercy to Fat Buu after Mr. Satan pleaded his case, and he wished Kid Buu to be reborn into a good person, the most mercy he can show to this version of Buu. Even with Cell, you can argue that he was shown mercy from Gohan who pleaded with him to give up because he will kill him if he unleashed his power. Cell rejected it, so from Goku's point-of-view Cell's life was forfeited.

edited 5th Mar '16 2:41:17 PM by Ramona122003

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#35052: Mar 5th 2016 at 2:36:35 PM

I think the fight against the two bio warriors in the second movie is a better example.

Oh I agree, I've just posted it a bunch of times before, figured I'd go with something different. The movies have some of the best fights in the series, obviously a larger budget.

it actually has Goku fight until he can't fight anymore, since instead of him just surrendering and admitting defeat,

Oh. I thought Whis knocked him out.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35053: Mar 5th 2016 at 2:38:46 PM

Goku surrendering to Beerus is actually what AT wrote in the script for Battle of Gods. So the change to him fighting until he collapse is done by someone else. I guess some fans really didn't like Goku admitting defeat.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35054: Mar 5th 2016 at 2:50:12 PM

Goku's a bit too stubborn to admit defeat, he'll only admit defeat if it kills him.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#35055: Mar 5th 2016 at 2:50:47 PM

He spares Frieza more because he saw him as too pathetic to kill

I thought that was what happened in the original fight, as well. Goku realises Freeza at 100% of his power was still no match for him, and Freeza was losing power rapidly. He realises there's no point in fighting anymore, because Freeza wasn't even a challenge, and Goku had already ripped his pride to shreds.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#35056: Mar 5th 2016 at 2:52:26 PM

There was a scene in Broly where Broly even mocked him about it. Goku looks at him, smiles, and says he never learned how to give up. Shortly before letting Broly slap his shit again. Goku looked really high in that scene.

[up]Has it been a year since the Saiga balls were last gathered?

edited 5th Mar '16 2:53:00 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35057: Mar 5th 2016 at 2:54:59 PM

So him surrendering to Cell was what exactly? Goku maybe stubborn, but he knows that Beerus was superior to him and nothing he can do will allow him to win. The same with Cell.

Goku's mercy towards Frieza the first time was a mixture of being too pathetic to kill and Cruel Mercy. In Super it's an outright, you too pathetic to kill because you're an idiot for rushing to fight when you didn't master your ability. In the movie it's, come back and fight me again when you master your form. Both works within Goku's character.

It should be noted that the first Broly movie was made before the Cell Games. So Goku's 'I never give up' actually falls under Hilarious in Hindsight.

edited 5th Mar '16 2:56:23 PM by Ramona122003

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#35058: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:06:36 PM

When Goku surrendered against Cell, he knew Gohan could beat him.

When Goku surrendered against Beerus, for all he knew Earth and everybody in it was doomed.

He still fought Cell until he was so completely exhausted that he couldn't even fight a Cell Jr. at all, and was actually doing worse against them than Yamcha, Krillin and Tien.

edited 5th Mar '16 3:07:23 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35059: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:09:21 PM

He still gave up the fight. He didn't fight to the bitter end and did as much damage as he could before Gohan took over, if he's truly as stubborn as you are saying.

Beerus, Goku could barely stand and collapsed. There was nothing he can do to win. He put aside his pride to become a Super Saiyan God, used his best attack, drain his energy keeping an energy ball from destroying the Earth, he had nothing left. The only thing Goku could have done is surrender and admit Beerus was the better fighter.

He was in much worse shape after fighting Beerus than Cell. He could barely stand against Beerus even before he surrender, he actually collapsed and Beerus caught him. Cell, he was able to move under his own power and give some resistance to the Cell Jr.

edited 5th Mar '16 3:13:11 PM by Ramona122003

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#35060: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:17:20 PM

I'm gonna say Goku isn't any less of a Determinator for doing Know When to Fold 'Em against Beerus, because Goku still fought with everything he had in the end. If he had kept on fighting, that would go into Too Dumb to Live.

Goku never gives up but only if he knows there's a chance to win, no matter how slim. For all he knew though, there was nothing he had to beat Beerus. He exhausted all of his options, all of his moves, and nobody else was powerful enough to take him on. Giving up was really the only option.

edited 5th Mar '16 3:17:55 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35061: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:18:37 PM

He gave up because he didn't plan to defeat Cell himself, his only reason for fighting Cell was so that Gohan could witness Cell's power and ability.

Had he not planned around that, I'm pretty sure he would've kept fighting. Cell and Goku were both exhausted, so it's not like either one had the upper-hand in the battle had it continued.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35062: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:21:15 PM

Goku was much more exhausted than Cell though. Goku says he was going all out but Cell wasn't.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#35063: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:23:22 PM

Yea, even Piccolo pointed out that Goku's power was dropping far faster than Cell's. If the battle continued, Goku would have definitely lost.

edited 5th Mar '16 3:23:59 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#35064: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:23:31 PM

Goku had planned on Gohan defeating Cell, but that doesn't mean he wasn't trying his hardest. He tried his hardest and he realised his hardest wasn't enough. Cell was just too powerful.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35065: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:24:57 PM

It was the same with Beerus, except worse. He went all out against Beerus and he only manages to bring out 70% of Beerus' power. Beerus even says that Goku in the end was never a threat. AT put Super Saiyan God Goku at a 6 and Beerus at a 10. Goku never had a remote chance at winning and he knew that, which is why he chose to give up.

In the Cell Games, Goku says he fought with everything he had when Gohan asked was he holding back. Gohan thought Goku didn't fight all out because nothing Goku and Cell did impressed him and he thought his father was stronger than him. The fight was to both show Gohan how Cell fought and to show Gohan that he was stronger than him.

edited 5th Mar '16 3:28:48 PM by Ramona122003

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#35066: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:28:29 PM

That's another detail; Goku has a pretty good understanding of his limits as well as his opponent's unlike Vegeta's pre-Character Development. Goku would fight against someone he knew he'd have no chance against just to try it, because he's a Blood Knight more interested in fighting for it's own sake than winning or losing, unless the consequences were larger and even then.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35067: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:40:02 PM

Cell would've had the upper hand in the battle if it continued, but then there would've been no one to give him a Senzu and at that point anyone could've taken him on.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35068: Mar 5th 2016 at 3:47:57 PM

Trunks suggested that, but no one thought it would worked. Cell seemed pretty confident that he could take the group even if they all teamed up. He offered Goku to take a Senzu, that is how sure he was that Goku couldn't win even if he was healed.

Also, thinking about it, one of Frieza's Fatal Flaws is that he doesn't Know When to Fold 'Em. If he has simply accepted his defeat against Goku on Namek and trained himself like Goku suggested, he would have been overall better off, instead of being cut to pieces and him trying to backstab Goku. His stubbornness got him killed on Earth the first time since he rushed there with his father as soon as he was off the operating table. He died again because he didn't take Goku's offer to leave peaceful and try again another day. There is a different between fighting to the bitter end and just being stupid.

edited 5th Mar '16 3:48:33 PM by Ramona122003

Envyus Since: Jun, 2011
#35069: Mar 5th 2016 at 4:32:12 PM

DB Super Frost is indeed a poison user which is how he beat Goku

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#35070: Mar 5th 2016 at 4:34:48 PM

The only reason Goku folded against Cell is because Earth was, technically, in no real danger.

Goku went all out, had a freaking blast fighting Cell and then folded, because he could afford to.

Against Beerus, the situation is entirely different. Goku even had to use a method to artificially boost his power for this fight, something he actually dislikes doing and he says as much even in the movie itself. Everything was on the line. If Goku lost that fight, Earth would have gone up in an Earth-Shattering Kaboom behind him. Continuing to try to fight Beerus is not Too Dumb to Live, it's literally the only option he has, because if he loses, he's going to die anyway because Beerus intends to destroy Earth.

It makes sense for Goku to fold against Cell because there was a safety net. It doesn't make sense with Beerus because there wasn't.

Yes, it's true that Beerus loophole'd his way out of destroying Earth, but Goku did not know that he would do that.

edited 5th Mar '16 4:36:30 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35071: Mar 5th 2016 at 4:37:39 PM

Except there was nothing to be done against Beerus. There is no reason for him to continue to fight when he knows he has absolutely no chance of winning. He was like that against Cell and Vegeta the first time.

Goku doesn't continue to fight when it's pointless. If there's a small sliver of hope sure, but not when it is absolutely pointless.

randomness4 Ghost '11 from The Land of Inconvenience Since: Sep, 2011
Ghost '11
#35072: Mar 5th 2016 at 4:44:01 PM

He was like that against Veggie, but he was kind of body crippled...sooo, he couldn't continue fighting even if he wanted to.

Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie. Check out my art if you notice.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#35073: Mar 5th 2016 at 4:45:18 PM

And it still works because IANCE seems to be trying to say that Goku does not ever give up and insists on continuing to fight no matter how pointless he knows it is or how little sense it makes. And he is wrong.

Goku has never been one of those guys to go "I'll keep fighting no matter what" and then magically get stronger.

edited 5th Mar '16 4:46:33 PM by LSBK

Ramona122003 Since: Jan, 2001
#35074: Mar 5th 2016 at 4:46:12 PM

What do you mean the Earth was in no real danger from Cell? Cell outright says if he wins the Cell Games he will hunt down and kill everyone on Earth. Unlike Beerus who will at least give the Earthlings a quick death by blowing up the world, Cell was going to give turn the Earth into Hell before destroying. To say the odds weren't as great is just isn't true.

Goku knew the stakes. He also had a blast fighting Beerus, despite his distaste for Super Saiyan God, so it is really no different than his fight with Cell. He fought until he knew he couldn't win, then folded. Him keep fighting after he exhausted all his energy isn't brave, it is just stupid and would have gotten him killed and the Earth still would have been destroyed. So Goku fighting to the death would be more a matter of his own pride, not protecting anything.

He used an energy boast he hated, fight all he had, and it wasn't enough. At that point, it was wiser to admit that you lost.

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#35075: Mar 5th 2016 at 4:50:07 PM

The more I watch Super, the more I feel like everything I hate about it (besides the animation) can be fixed by just taking Vegeta out of the story.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!

Total posts: 130,800
Top