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TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#33026: Jan 18th 2016 at 10:56:08 AM

Man I was kind of looking forward to Buu fighting cause he could be pretty silly, but Gohan getting a chance would be pretty cool too.

Buuuuuut right now I'm paying more attention to that fusion game.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#33027: Jan 18th 2016 at 10:57:45 AM

I don't even care about Super anymore, manga or anime. I never got past Chapter 3 of Super and Episode 2 of the anime.

Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33029: Jan 18th 2016 at 11:01:10 AM

I'm planning on catching up on Super, both manga and anime. I just have a lot on my plate right now that's eating into my free time.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Face me now, bitch!
#33030: Jan 18th 2016 at 11:01:24 AM

[up][up][up] Ok.

edited 18th Jan '16 11:01:34 AM by Demongodofchaos2

Watch Symphogear
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
TheMageofFire Since: May, 2012
#33032: Jan 18th 2016 at 11:07:38 AM

Very Melon is allowed to not care for Super, no need to give him sarcasm for it.

Admittedly I'll be more excited for it now that we're at the tourney stuff, but I didn't care about it before now.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#33033: Jan 18th 2016 at 11:09:19 AM

Tobias, your opinion seems to be very uninformed.

Keep in mind, Final Fantasy is not the only RPG that exists. Also keep in mind that 'grinding' is not a thing that is exclusive to RP Gs either.

Those 'RPG mechanics' that you're railing against are in a lot more than just RP Gs, and not because those games have RPG elements to them.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#33034: Jan 18th 2016 at 11:13:22 AM

So,any ideas on how Gohan will be hyped,if he comes back?Beating a Golden Freeza level threat?Cause he's prooobably gonna lose after that.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#33035: Jan 18th 2016 at 11:13:39 AM

I don't agree with Tobias' equation of RPG Mechanics to Fake Longevity either, but I've seen him play more RP Gs than just Final Fantasy.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#33036: Jan 18th 2016 at 11:26:43 AM

I'm exaggerating on purpose. Final Fantasy isn't even a particularly egregious example in terms of Fake Longevity, since for the most part, the FF games tend to be beatable with minimal grinding.

Hell, even grinding isn't always Fake Longevity. In Disgaea, for instance, the grinding is the entire point of the game. It's not Fake Longevity because it's not forcing you to do something to artificially lengthen the game, you're doing it willingly, because that's what you play a Disgaea game for.

In a decently paced RPG with a properly crafted leveling curve, you generally don't need to stop and grind, either.

Thing is, in Xenoverse, you actually have to stop and grind, because even the best player will eventually just be unable to win, because the game is programmed in such a way that a lot of enemies are basically stat gates. It doesn't help that the AI is terrible and so instead of being challenging by being skilled, it's challenging by cheating a lot.

If anything, the biggest offenders for Fake Longevity are MM Os, which Xenoverse was trying to resemble.

edited 18th Jan '16 11:32:57 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33037: Jan 18th 2016 at 12:01:20 PM

Those 'RPG mechanics' that you're railing against are in a lot more than just RP Gs, and not because those games have RPG elements to them.

They are now, but that's only because they've spread out and filtered through the rest of gaming in the past couple decades. There was a time when you could play a Castlevania title without worrying about leveling up and farming skeletons for that 2% drop item. When Resident Evil didn't require you to collect coins and buy upgrades from mysterious vendors.

The Fake Longevity XP grinding and encounter-farming concepts came from early-generation RPGs of the NES and SNES era. One of the earliest examples is the Pink Puff from Final Fantasy IV (renamed Flan Princess in later remakes) with a 1/64 chance of spawning in one room of the final dungeon, and a 1/64 chance of dropping a Pink Tail when you kill it.

There was a time when any game that utilized these mechanics and wasn't an RPG would boast about "RPG Mechanics!" as one of its product features, because that style of game design was known as the RPG system. That they're so commonplace today is only demonstrative of how much they've grown to saturate the industry.

edited 18th Jan '16 12:06:57 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#33038: Jan 18th 2016 at 12:20:24 PM

They're easier to implement into RP Gs by a longshot, but it doesn't change the fact that it's not something that is really RPG exclusive and never really was.

Time used to be, you had to depend on an AI roulette so that the game didn't decide you weren't going to win that time in pretty much every beat'em up, because the games weren't sophisticated enough to have AI that makes decisions based on circumstance. So the game could randomly screw you over.

Random drops aren't inherent to the RPG formula. They never have been. They've always been used as a way to pad out games, yes, but they're not actually necessary. Even if they were called 'RPG mechanics', they never actually were. If Xenoverse had no character progression system, you could bet your ass that it'd still have RNG on top of RNG. Because it has nothing to do with character progression, and more to do with artificially increasing the length of the game.

Saying that "RPG mechanics are fake longevity" is basically the same as saying "all manga is shounen action garbage".

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33039: Jan 18th 2016 at 12:37:58 PM

If Xenoverse didn't have character progression, there would be almost nothing to RNG. They use the RNG for determining attack and item drops, both of which are part of character progression. They also use it to determine whether you get to fight the Bonus Boss in most levels, but that's far less noticeable as they almost always give it to you if you met the criteria.

Frankly, this is a semantics argument, which makes me curious. Your position seems to be that you object to my use of the term "RPG Mechanics" to describe level-up systems, equipment vendors, drop rates, etc. That makes me curious.

What would you define RPG Mechanics as?

edited 18th Jan '16 12:38:24 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#33040: Jan 18th 2016 at 1:47:27 PM

Yeah, spoilers seem interesting. Frost and the Saiyans don't seem to be full-on evil in their universe. It's actually kind of refreshing.

I don't know why they put Buu on the poster if he was just going to fail the written test, though. Bait-and-switch? Not gonna lie, I was really interested in seeing him fight. Ah, well.

I know everyone is saying maybe Gohan is coming back, but the tournament has already started as 4 v 5 and honestly, I'd rather they wait a bit if they want to do the "Gohan shows up at the last minute and surprises everyone by how strong he is".

But on another note, the Fusion game sounds really interesting. I don't know what the core gameplay would be, but there's a lot of things they could do with just that concept.

edited 18th Jan '16 1:48:23 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#33041: Jan 18th 2016 at 1:51:32 PM

Ugh, gotta slog through Super again to figure out what everyone is talking about.....

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#33042: Jan 18th 2016 at 3:27:47 PM

If you've seen Resurrection F, you can pretty much skip Ep 24,25 and 26. Nothing important changes.

...actually, you should skip them because they're pretty awful anyway.

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#33043: Jan 18th 2016 at 3:29:48 PM

The best episodes of Super so far have been the filler episodes. So much gold there.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#33044: Jan 18th 2016 at 3:37:18 PM

So Buu is out eh? And Super ended with Gohan asking Piccolo to retrain him? It seems like a potential set-up for his come-back, but lets not count our space chickens before they've hatched....in space.

I too am disappointed we didn't get to see Buu fight. It's been a while since he's been in a battle where he might have stood a chance, so it's kind of disappointing.

Frost being a good version of Frieza and that one Saiyan not being an evil asshole is interesting (though as Unnoun has pointed out, not all Saiyans were as evil as Vegeta used to be). So I guess Goku will finally get his chance to have a good fight with Frieza without all the usual shit in the way—you know, like the evil and the murder and all that—and we all know he'll love that.

wild mass guess The fifth fighter will be Android 18, who was told there would be money involved by Whis.wild mass guess

One Strip! One Strip!
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#33045: Jan 18th 2016 at 3:42:33 PM

[up] Oh please I hope it's android 18 and she learned Kaoi-ken and did a ritual where she became a Super Human God.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#33046: Jan 18th 2016 at 3:47:27 PM

If Xenoverse didn't have character progression, there would be almost nothing to RNG.

Wrong. The clothes would still drop randomly, even if the sole purpose they served was customization.

Character Customization =/= Character Progression

They use the RNG for determining attack and item drops, both of which are part of character progression.

Wrong again. Item drops are not necessarily part of character progression. There's lots of crafting items, consumables and the like. Or what, are you calling every medkit you pick up in an FPS "Character Progression"?

Gaining new abilities or equipment does count - but only the abilities would count if the equipment was purely cosmetic.

They also use it to determine whether you get to fight the Bonus Boss in most levels, but that's far less noticeable as they almost always give it to you if you met the criteria.

They use it to determine whether you get to fight the bonus boss in most levels, which is not part in any way, shape or form of character progression and is arguably the dumbest part about this, because there's no reason why there should be a random element to unlocking the Ultimate Finish, but I digress. I'd like to remind you that there was a time in which they had to buff the chances because they were, in fact, pathetically low. And that's speaking relatively, they weren't as low as the chance of getting a specific drop but they were far too low for something that should not have involved RNG anyway.

Frankly, this is a semantics argument, which makes me curious. Your position seems to be that you object to my use of the term "RPG Mechanics" to describe level-up systems, equipment vendors, drop rates, etc. That makes me curious.

No, I object to your use of "RPG Mechanics" to refer to equipment vendors, drop rates and that sort of stuff. Because they're not exclusive to RP Gs. Hell these days not even Leveling Up is, though it used to be. That is an RPG element. Character progression.

What would you define RPG Mechanics as?

That's a difficult question, to be quite honest. There's a few things I consider roleplaying mechanics, but even then, it depends more on the execution and usage of those elements, rather than on the elements themselves. Plus there's also the fact that there's more than one idea of an RPG and in a sense, with a little stretching you can say that pretty much any game you can think of is an RPG because you play the role of a certain character or person or entity or collective or what have you.

But really, what I'm objecting to is your equating of "RPG Mechanics = Forced Grinding = Fake Longevity", because that is as true as saying that everyone from Latin America is hispanic.

(Hint: I'm from Argentina, and I'm white. Every one of my bosses at my job is also Argentine and white. In fact, in the Autonomous City of Buenos Aires, you're more likely to come across very white people rather than 'hispanics', because most of us are descended from Western Europeans... and a lot of Germans in this past century 'cuz, you know, we just took their money and made sure nobody knew they were here).

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#33047: Jan 18th 2016 at 4:26:41 PM

So you're objecting to the terminology because you reject the premise of RPG as a genre that has had pretty clearly defined mechanics since the 1980's. Got it.

Not sure why you took it to a weird racial place, but I'm content to leave it here.

edited 18th Jan '16 4:27:30 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#33048: Jan 18th 2016 at 4:35:33 PM

No, I object to the terminology because you're equating "RPG Mechanics" to "Fake Longevity". And those 'pretty defined mechanics' that you speak of aren't intrinsic to the existence of an RPG. None of them is vital. Yes, they frequently show up in RP Gs. Just because it has guns in it doesn't make Mount & Blade Warband a FPS.

And that 'weird race thing' is to illustrate the point that blanket statements tend to be wrong.

edited 18th Jan '16 4:38:45 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#33050: Jan 18th 2016 at 4:39:09 PM

XD

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else

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