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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#32876: Jan 17th 2016 at 5:22:23 AM

Buu probably shot blasts at his family.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#32878: Jan 17th 2016 at 5:26:14 AM

The question is, did 17 block them or fail to?

JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#32879: Jan 17th 2016 at 5:33:04 AM

I don't think 17 can sense ki, either. He was probably ranging that park when the whole shebang went down, maybe he didn't even notice.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#32880: Jan 17th 2016 at 5:35:00 AM

He could probably learn how to sense Ki, given 18 knows how in Yo Son Goku and Friends Return, but. Yeah.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#32881: Jan 17th 2016 at 6:49:08 AM

17 is not a martial artist and he has nobody to teach him or reason to learn.

So there's literally no reason why 17 would know something happened to his family until, y'know, he went and saw it.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#32882: Jan 17th 2016 at 7:18:11 AM

So today is the last episode of the Revival of F arc.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32883: Jan 17th 2016 at 9:19:13 AM

Cool. Now we can get into the new stuff...

Though there may be some more in-between filler arcs to give the manga a bit more space as well.

@Saiga:

It's not that Super Saiyan is more useful. It's that Kaio-ken was an extremely problematic concept that needed to be dropped as quickly as possible before spread to everyone. Think Super Saiyan but worse. Anyone not using Kaio-ken isn't showing their best, so you'd either need contrived ways for every villain to pick it up or accept that the heroes are winning because the deck is always stacked in their favour. To have Kaio-ken still be used in the story you'd need better ways to justify some, but not all, having it. If it's still prominent and Piccolo doesn't get it people cry unfair, if he does then it overshadows his unique and more personal power-ups.

Ok, I kinda see your point. He was trying to pare down the cast, so he handed out a power up that others couldn't use, while raising the bar so that he could push the other guys out (though they are still showing up anyway). Plus as Tobias pointed out (or was that Zelenal?) even if they could use Kaiouken to the same level as Goku did on Namek (I believe the highest he went was times 20 when he did that Kamehameha on Frieza), they'd still be outmatched. I get this, but being the stubborn twit that I am, I still can't help but Lament the potential.

Would Kaiouken make Tien's Shin Kikoushou stronger then before (probably not?) If all of them Went to the highest level of Kaiouken they were capable of, then did a group Kamehameha (technique that boosts fighting power, plus the way attacks can have higher power level then the user, plus how powerful combined attacks can be if you remember that one time Goku and Vegeta did it while fighting Buu even if it failed) would it let them defeat an enemy they couldn't defeat alone (nope. I know this already)?

I guess I don't let go of things easily. I mean, I still think Goku mastering Kaiouken to the point that you barely noticed him using it was cool even if it was an anime only thing. I feel like him mastering a technique that's required to be used in Short bursts anyway to that extent is a logical point to go for, and I'd have loved some of the other characters to reach that level as well. Still weaker than most of their enemies, but constantly confusing them by suddenly being able to avoid their attacks and having spikes of power that do way more damage then they should, then going back to their normal level for the ultimate Confusion Fu.

That's not gonna happen. I know it won't. I know why it won't, but like I said: Stubborn twit We'll likely never agree on this, but I don't think I'll ever stop feeling that way, and though I still see to de-pope you and free dragon ball from you iron handed tyranny, I respect your opinions.

As for the Namekian evil being part, just get someone beside the other half to kill them and force them to give birth to an egg. Then let that egg grow up in a good family. Problem (not really) solved.tongue

I mean, sure, they'd cause untold amounts of destruction while they are around, but you can't create a super name without not only breaking a few eggs, but spitting those eggs out of your mouth.cool

edited 17th Jan '16 9:20:07 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#32884: Jan 17th 2016 at 12:18:58 PM

TOEI tossed Trunks, Goten, Majin Buu, Pan and Uub under the bus in favor of Vegeta in GT and people still have to ask?

I'll say that Vegeta seeing Freeza's weakness before Goku does make sense to the extent Vegeta is able to observe Freeza without having to deal with his attacks or put effort into his own.

My only problem in changing the things is, well, Goku being able to see what Vegeta did while fighting was perfectly illustrative of Whis's point. Goku doesn't get tense or over think things, so he's able to pick up on things even while under greater stress and looking through a narrower perspective than Vegeta.

Call me easily impressed but I thought Revival Of F told it's story well enough. I think the fight scenes could have been better as far as intensity, technicality and pure entertainment go but from a narrative perspective were adequate.

If one wanted to improve the narrative part, why not explain why Buu was gone? A lot of people didn't like Gohan being back to a super saiyan. A lot of people didn't like Goku being shot in the back with a laser ring. I wanted to see Jiya become an official part of Dragon Ball. There was an explicit reason why at least one soldier was stronger, so that is one point towards Super but Vegeta seeing Freeza's weakness before Goku isn't another, not to me.

In a vacuum it makes more sense but in the context of this story it takes away from the impact of what Whis said.

Buldogue's lawyer
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#32885: Jan 17th 2016 at 12:57:16 PM

The frack is Jiya? I remember Sorbet, Tagoma, Shisami, and Jaco, and while one of these things is not like the others, I don't remember a 'Jiya' anywhere in the film.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32886: Jan 17th 2016 at 1:02:12 PM

I think Jiya is some other work that Toriyama did that people though Jaco The Galactic Patrolman was a prequel to.

One Strip! One Strip!
LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#32887: Jan 17th 2016 at 1:38:10 PM

And now I'm just realising all these other moments where Vegeta got extra attention. After his rage boost, Beerus said he was a better fight than SSJ 3 Goku. He managed to learn how to sense God Ki...just because. When in Whis's staff, it's Vegeta who manages to stop his ki from leaking out first. In the retelling of RF, Whis explains Goku's flaws, but doesn't mention Vegeta's. As if Vegeta doesn't have any flaws.

Like, when you put these all together, it seems like they're trying to say that Vegeta is a better fighter than Goku. And...that's never really been the case before, has it? He used to be a victim of Always Someone Better, and now it doesn't seem like he is anymore.

Which isn't the worst, as long as they have something to motivate his character in its place.

edited 17th Jan '16 1:41:13 PM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32888: Jan 17th 2016 at 1:41:30 PM

Yeah, not sure how I feel about that.

Maybe because Vegeta isn't deluding himself into the idea that he's already better, and without that sense of superiority to hold him back, he can actually grow quite a lot.

Or it's just bullshit. Whatever floats your boat.

edited 17th Jan '16 1:41:56 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#32889: Jan 17th 2016 at 2:24:29 PM

Vegeta was a better fighter than Goku when he was introduced, and even then, only in the sense that his powerlevel was greater.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#32890: Jan 17th 2016 at 3:38:58 PM

Okay, "why should the Humans get the Kaio-Ken" is a bad argument, the argument should be "why shouldn't the Humans get Kaio-Ken" for which there is no good answer.

edited 17th Jan '16 3:39:34 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#32891: Jan 17th 2016 at 3:43:43 PM

Kaio-Ken does sort of give you a nigh-infinite "ceiling" for power. I can see how that might be bad for tension.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32892: Jan 17th 2016 at 3:49:44 PM

Although there's a a limit to how high you can go. But I suppose depending on how far you can master it, you can do quite a bit.

We never learn if Goku really pushed it as high as it could go, but then again, since how high you can push it depends on your power level and durability, I suppose it's not much good.

As Tobias already pointed out, Krillin, the canonically strongest human in the series would still be far behind the Saiyans even if he could use it to the same extent Goku does.

Man, Namek really messed things up.

One Strip! One Strip!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#32893: Jan 17th 2016 at 3:50:30 PM

Only as infinite as your body can handle. Goku was exceptional with it, not the norm.

edited 17th Jan '16 4:39:33 PM by LSBK

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#32894: Jan 17th 2016 at 3:54:31 PM

Yeah.

So even if they could master it, they could never do so to the extent that Goku did.

But hell, as long as I'm on that tangent, if Krillin for example, could use the Kaiouken, how high do you guys think he could take it?

Also, since 17 and 18 can still grow stronger through training, maybe they could use it. They won't because they have no interest in such things, and they both already have enough power, but still.

Edit: So I finally checked out the scene in the manga again. When Goku was still getting stomped by Frieza, he was using level 10. When he launched the attack that could have beaten Frieza if the latter hadn't raised his power to block it with his hand, he went to twenty. So Twenty (at that point at least) seemed to be his limit.

edited 17th Jan '16 3:55:56 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#32895: Jan 17th 2016 at 3:54:35 PM

There's actually a very realistic reason why the humans don't get Kaioken, narrative-wise.

It serves no purpose.

Even with Kaioken x1000, the strongest human ever would still not be a match for the Saiyans. Krillin peaked at 75,000 in the Namek saga, the strongest known powerlevel for a human. That's 75,000,000. Still not enough to beat Freeza, let alone anything that came after. And if Krillin can take Kaioken to x1000, why wouldn't Goku be able to do the same or better?

Hell, even a Kaioken x10000 would be insufficient to make the Strongest Human in the Universe able to go toe to toe with Cell, let alone Majin Buu.

Piccolo, though, could probably make use of Kaioken x20 to become relevant in fights again.

In fact, next time I write fanfic, imma do that. Imma have Piccolo prepare for Cell by getting Goku to teach him Kaioken. Or hell, make him able to do it a long time before, have him pull Kaioken x3 against Third Form Freeza, thus actually giving him a reason to transform...

edited 17th Jan '16 3:55:50 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#32896: Jan 17th 2016 at 3:55:29 PM

[up]x6 Way to go. You just completely ignored the reasons we just gave for why you shouldn't give Kaiouken to anyone. To summarize: It's be completely pointless in nearly all cases, it'd devalue the other powerups, and you'd keep having to justify why the villains don't use it. Also, there's no place for anyone to learn it since Piccolo and company were only on Kaiou's planet for about a week and it took Goku about six months to master the Kaiouken and Genki Dama.

[up] And that.

edited 17th Jan '16 3:55:48 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#32897: Jan 17th 2016 at 3:57:14 PM

To be fair, I'd totally accept Piccolo learning it.

And IT too.

Why did no one at least try to learn IT? It's an insanely useful utility technique. You can even use it to go to the goddamned afterlife whenever you want.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#32898: Jan 17th 2016 at 3:57:48 PM

Because very few people in the series are taught techniques.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#32899: Jan 17th 2016 at 3:58:34 PM

Vaguely related, is it true that the idea of the "Z Fighters" being a mostly-equal "superhero team" was an invention of the dub? I could swear someone (Tobias?) mentioned that a while back.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#32900: Jan 17th 2016 at 3:58:36 PM

Weirdly enough, in Budokai Tenkaichi 3, Goku could actually use the Kaio-ken at least twenty five times before the effects become detrimental, so it seems like in this case Goku could have used a Kaio-ken x25 to equal half of what he'd get as a Super Saiyan.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!

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