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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#31326: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:21:29 AM

No, I think Piccolo trained up to becoming stronger than Freeza when he was fighting 20.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#31327: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:22:06 AM

edited 18th Dec '15 10:23:13 AM by Nikkolas

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#31328: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:24:02 AM

Was Piccolo far stronger after three years of training? Absolutely. Unquestionably.

Did he surpass Frieza? ...I honestly don't know. Bearing in mind that even Goku never surpassed Frieza in Base until BOG/Super came about, it's hard for me to conceive that Piccolo raised his strength more in three years of Mountain Training with Goku than Goku himself did in a decade.

EDIT: Gears turning click click click BING.

Hey guys, do you think the reason for Nail and Piccolo's ridiculous gains when they fused might be related to Guru's Potential Unlock? Nail's power was unlocked, granting him his 42,000 battle power. Everything Piccolo had, on the other hand, was hard earned.

What if merging with Nail unlocked Piccolo's potential as a side effect?

edited 18th Dec '15 10:28:40 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#31329: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:29:20 AM

Piccolo did train with Goku and Gohan for those 3 years, so I assume he had better gains scaling wise from it. He could easily be stronger than Freeza's 120 million by the time the Androids show up.

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#31330: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:29:41 AM

[up][up]That would be some hidden Fridge Brilliance if true. tongue

edited 18th Dec '15 10:29:55 AM by Lionheart0

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31331: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:47:59 AM

[up][up][up]

That might make sense. Maybe fusing with Nail was an auto potential unlock in order to better handle the power Nail was bringing to the table.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#31332: Dec 18th 2015 at 10:48:24 AM

Not sure how much better his power scaling would be. It depends on how much time he spent training with Base Goku and how much with Super Saiyan Goku.

I don't know what it is, but something about the idea that Android arc Piccolo was more powerful than Buu arc Base Goku isn't sitting right with me. Maybe he was and Saiga's going to show up with the definitive proof, but as it stands now, I just can't see it.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#31333: Dec 18th 2015 at 11:07:51 AM

Pretty sure I've talked with Saiga about this in the past. There's no conclusive proof one way or another on how strong Android Arc Piccolo was. At least that's my memory of last time this was discussed.

Also prior to this stupid movie or whatever it was, pretty much everyone was certain that Buu Saga Base Goku was well above Freeza. Everyone I knew, anyway. Plus this whole conversation started with GT, which is its own AU and doesn't really jive with the new movies s far as I know.

edited 18th Dec '15 11:09:06 AM by Nikkolas

Rinsankajugin Since: Feb, 2012
#31334: Dec 18th 2015 at 11:18:52 AM

SSJB Vegeta and Supreme Kai trailer for Zenkai Battle:

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31335: Dec 18th 2015 at 11:25:13 AM

That trap them in Katchin technique for the Supreme Kai is something I wish Toriyama had thought of in the series. It's a pretty good idea.

I wonder if that would work on Buu, or if he'd escape through the tiny cracks in the cube or something? Or if he could Vice Shout his way out?

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#31336: Dec 18th 2015 at 11:45:49 AM

Buu could probably throw a big enough tantrum to get out eventually. This guy did get out of the Room of Many Names by shouting, remember?

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#31337: Dec 18th 2015 at 1:08:03 PM

Piccolo got really strong training for the Saiyans.

Like, just training in the mountains, on Earth, he went from 300-something to 3500.

He was stronger than anyone else on Earth at the time.

Yeah, Goku's gains from training at King Kai's and in the spaceship going to Namek were good, but those involved both high gravity and, in the case of the later, zenkai, which Goku didn't get as often or as much after going Super Saiyan.

So I think Piccolo might just get really good results from training.

I mean, Frieza became stronger than Majin Buu after only training for four months.

And in terms of power, it seemed like he was about equal to SSGSS Goku. It was the power bleed that screwed him over. I'd call Golden Frieza, like, half a Beerus. A 5 to Beerus's 10.

edited 18th Dec '15 1:12:07 PM by unnoun

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#31338: Dec 18th 2015 at 1:15:55 PM

The problem with Piccolo just using Clothes Beam to create new clothes for himself is that he's increasing the total mass of the universe every time.

Eventually he will be responsible for the Earth collapsing into a black hole, or the Big Crunch.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#31339: Dec 18th 2015 at 1:20:03 PM

It would actually take a lot of mass for that to happen though, even then it would require the mass of a large stellar body being focused on one point for that to really happen.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#31340: Dec 18th 2015 at 1:20:47 PM

Beerus just needs to destroy something somewhere else. Literally his job. It's all good. All balances out.

edited 18th Dec '15 1:21:51 PM by unnoun

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#31341: Dec 18th 2015 at 1:24:50 PM

But he's just atomizing the planets, not destroying matter.

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#31342: Dec 18th 2015 at 1:28:15 PM

He just needs to make a black hole then; once you get to the center of one, even quantum particles would be destroyed by the gravity. What with gravity essentially being infinite once you get to that point.

edited 18th Dec '15 1:30:19 PM by Ssj3Gojira

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#31343: Dec 18th 2015 at 1:30:20 PM

Beerus is the destroyer of all.

Including matter.

The Dragon Ball universe's physics are different.

Energy and matter have to be created and destroyed in roughly equal amounts.

Supreme Kais make stuff, Beerus destroys it.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#31344: Dec 18th 2015 at 2:36:52 PM

edited 18th Dec '15 2:38:00 PM by Nikkolas

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#31345: Dec 18th 2015 at 2:54:22 PM

I kind of thought that Piccolo's Clothes Beam was just him changing energy into matter.

Which wouldn't break the laws of thermodynamics.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#31346: Dec 18th 2015 at 3:37:21 PM

The clothes beam presumably requires Ki, which is an energy source, hence matter and energy conversion so not threat of universal collapse just by using it.

And so what if Android saga Piccolo is stronger than base Goku? He's not stronger than super saiyan Goku, let alone super saiyan 2.

Say True Form Freeza is 120 million, which we shouldn't because numerical power levels stopped existing after Freeza's "second" form was given a value of 1 million but going by that, a power level of 600 Million would be several times stronger than Freeza(five times stronger than his unsustainable "100%", seven times stronger than his sustainable 84 million) a higher level than Goku should be capable of reaching, according to science! That's the power level of Androids 19 and 20, 600 million. They didn't take super saiyan into account though, which means Goku/Vegeta need to reach a paltry 14 million and then apply your precious times fifty multiplier, which we also should not do because numerical multipliers disappeared after King Kai Fist 20. But just for the sake of conversation, we will, which gives us 750 million vs 600 million, otherwise known as smashed androids.

Now then, Android 18, lets put her at 799.999 million and android 17 at 800 million. Goku/Vegeta need only reach 16 million and their already past 17 and Piccolo, and that's not even what Vegeta and Trunks were doing mostly. They were increasing the strength of the super saiyain transformation itself. So, they simply raise super saiyan by ten points while staying at 14 million and bam, 840 million, Piccolo's still behind. But let's say they raised their power levels and bumped up super saiyain, just to be fair. That means Android 16 can be 875 million, Imperfect Cell+Android 17 can be at 1.675 billion. Vegeta Trunks just reach 28 million and Cell is dust int the wind. Okay, so Cell get 18 too, which should "only" put him at 2.474 million! More than enough to slay Trunks and Vegeta. In fact, 16 says 18 gave Cell a bigger boost than his calculations predicted so lets bump it up to a terrifying 3 billion! In fact, he needs to be because Goku and Gohan decided that instead of powering up the super saiyain transformation, they were just going to power up themselves and mast it. Either of them reaches a paltry 50 million and they humiliate Cell, 18 or not. She needs to give him a larger boost than logic dictates even when the saiyans are still less than half of 100% Freeza in base. Super Saiyan is that much of a game breaker.

So Cell is at three billion, "nothing" can touch him. Super Goku's at a mere 2.4 billion. No wait, Gohan, at a mere 60 million, merely half of what Freeza was, is just as strong as Cell as a super saiyan! Cell makes Gohan angry, Gohan goes Super Saiyan 2? What's the multiplier on that, 100? My God, 6 Billion! Cell needs the Zenkai bullshit to catch up to someone half as strong as Freeza.

You realize "stronger than your son was when he fought Cell" might as well mean 2% stronger. 61.2 million is as strong as base Goku needs to be. Piccolo triples that 800 million and he's still not in Cell's league. Goku as a mere super saiyan still has power level higher than Piccolo by a full billion, other wise known as the population of China! Piccolo is 20 times stronger than Freeza's 120 million and still winds up as a child trying to win at tug of war against an entire nation! And then Goku goes super saiyan 2. Now Piccolo's a child trying to win at tug of war against the entire rest of the human population! But wait, there is then a super saiyan 3! A four hundred multiplier you say? That's a difference of 20 billion!

You know, at that point it's easy to buy each Kaioshin being multiple times stronger than Freeza with that logic. That's enough space for each of them to be far beyond Piccolo, Kaioshin and Piccolo to both be far beyond Freeza and still weaker than beings who are actually weaker than Freeza in base once they start using super sayain and or going beyond super saiyan.

The point of this all being using numerical power levels to argue why Android saga Piccolo can't be weaker than Buu Saga base Goku. Androids saga Piccolo can be ten times stronger than Buu saga base Goku. And why not? Android saga Piccolo was a fused being who then fused again to become ever stronger. That's what happens when you ascribe a power up a X50 multiplier, it means Goku can benefit 49 times less from his training than Piccolo and still be above him.

That's kind of why I don't really want to see more forms of super saiyan, not before we see a lot of other fighters with their own transformations anyway. It's why I like Golden Freezer, why I like the fact Beerus and Whis remain at the top of the totem pole where Goku's an 8 out of ten at best.

edited 18th Dec '15 4:35:48 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31347: Dec 18th 2015 at 3:39:04 PM

[up]What do you mean stopped existing? Second form Frieza is the last one to be spoken aloud but that doesn't mean the others from that time someone how don't count.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#31348: Dec 18th 2015 at 3:42:01 PM

Ki still existed, but what numbers were associated with individual ki became complete speculation. One million was the last written number.

Buldogue's lawyer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#31349: Dec 18th 2015 at 3:44:17 PM

"Guide books don't count, only the series" is a position some people take probably and that's a valid approach maybe.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31350: Dec 18th 2015 at 3:44:44 PM

[up][up]Frieza's 120 million isn't speculation. You seem to be assuming that just because it wasn't stated during the fight it isn't true. Supplementary material gave us that and it's never been contradicted.

[up]Maybe, but I usually only see people say that when it says something they don't like. If those guidebooks end up contradicting each other or new works that's one thing, but Frieza's 120 million has never been contradicted as far as I know. Nor have any of other other power levels that we have that weren't actually stated as far as I'm aware.

edited 18th Dec '15 3:52:18 PM by LSBK


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