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VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#31076: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:31:28 PM

The battlecry of Gohan fans everywhere.

Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#31077: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:32:36 PM

Take a wild guess what type of fan I am of the show.

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#31079: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:34:43 PM

[up](x4)With Son Gohan being the strongest person alive?

Blasphemy.

Imagine a world where Dragonball ended at the Cell Saga, with Gohan being fatherless, Vegeta just flying off into the sunset, the gang splitting up, Hercule and the newsman surviving I guess... and then 10 years later, Dragonball Evolution. Or Broly Seocnd Coming. Or Dragonball Minus, whichever came first.

edited 13th Dec '15 6:35:38 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#31080: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:39:11 PM

I feel like this series is more in-tune with the fans than we think. This latest episode literally had Krillin telling Gohan that there's nothing wrong with giving up on training and having a family, running contrary to at least everyone here saying that Super seems to hate Gohan for making this choice with his life.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31081: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:48:58 PM

Haven't seen the ep yet, but Gohan nearly died due to his lack of training, and didn't Piccolo straight up die because he took the bullet for Gohan since the latter got in trouble due to not training?

I mean, Gohan not wanting to fight is one thing, but not keeping up his strength so he can deal with potential threats was a huge mistake on his part.

One Strip! One Strip!
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#31082: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:51:18 PM

On the subject of Oozarus, did you know some believe that Vegeta was originally going to be the Final Boss of the series? Reasons include the fact that, at the end of the Piccolo Jr. arc, Master Roshi breaks the fourth wall to say the story will continue "for a little while," and that the power behind Vegeta (Frieza) isn't mentioned until after Vegeta's been beaten. Thoughts?

This takes us to the “Z” portion of the story, which naturally brings up the whole reasoning behind the name “Dragon Ball Z” to begin with. In his joint interview with veteran animator Katsuyoshi Nakatsuru in the anime guide Son Goku Densetsu, Toriyama explained that he personally felt the name of the series was just fine the way it was, but the anime staff wanted something new for this new section of the story, and so “Dragon Ball Z” was born. As Toriyama explains, “Z is the last letter in the alphabet, right? So, at the time I already really wanted to end the series, and so I made the title ‘Z’ to say ‘Hey, this is the end!'”

It would seem that with all this talk about the series only continuing on for “just a little bit more”, and the “Z” in the anime title being a signal that this was the end, it would be reasonable to speculate that at the time Toriyama expected the Saiyan story arc to be the last one. This is not a theory tossed out often, because the Saiyan story arc ultimately ended up leading directly into the Freeza arc. It is not necessarily true that this was the plan from the beginning, and certainly there are plenty of signs in the Saiyan arc that Toriyama had not thought of Freeza yet. Planet Vegeta’s destruction is initially said to have been caused by simply a meteor collision (even ignoring contradictions exclusive to the TV adaptation of the series), while later on Freeza is said to have been the true cause. Vegeta and Nappa change their plans and head to Earth as if they were their own bosses; in the Freeza arc this action is said to have been in defiance of Freeza’s orders, something not even hinted at in the original scene. Also, Vegeta originally proposes that he and Nappa wish for immortality so that they can enjoy battle for all eternity, while in the Freeza arc Vegeta’s motive for obtaining immortality is changed to being so that he can defeat Freeza. In the Saiyan arc, the Saiyans are said to be the strongest race of warriors in the universe, and Vegeta personally claims to be the strongest in the universe while fighting Goku, while in the Freeza arc we are introduced to many members of alien races who are stronger than the Saiyans, and Freeza is now said to be the strongest in the universe.

None of these things are necessarily plot holes from an “in-universe” perspective (the story of Planet Vegeta being destroyed by a meteorite is said to be just Freeza’s cover story, claims of the Saiyans being strongest would just be signs of Raditz and Vegeta’s arrogance, etc), but from a real world perspective they all point to Toriyama having not originally planned on Freeza or his organization appearing while he was first writing the Saiyan arc. It is not until the tail end of the Saiyan arc that we first start having hints of Freeza, with Kaiō vaguely noting that killing Vegeta will not destroy “the roots of evil”. There is however a bit of an obstacle in thinking that Toriyama did not already have some inkling of the Freeza storyline in mind when writing the Saiyan arc. In his Daizenshuu 4 interview, when asked whether he intended from the very beginning that Piccolo would be an alien, he answered:

"Of course, I didn’t think that at all (laughs). The Saiyans were like that as well. When I thought up Goku’s tail and the Ōzaru, I didn’t think Goku was an alien or anything. Piccolo either. Because I thought that up when God came out."

Even though he had not planned on Piccolo being an alien from the beginning, he still had already come up with the idea before the 23rd Tenka’ichi Budōkai even began, long before the fact was finally revealed in the series (it would also therefore seem then that Piccolo and God’s conversation at the tournament was from the beginning intended to be Namekian and not simply some strange, random language).

If Toriyama had Piccolo’s alien origin planned out ahead of time, would that not also mean he had the Freeza arc planned out too? Not necessarily. For one thing, it is possible that Toriyama did not originally intend for the cast to travel to Piccolo’s home planet and have adventures there. After all, it is not as if the revelation of Goku’s alien heritage led to a trip to his home planet. For an outside perspective, take the Tenchi Muyo! series: throughout the numerous Tenchi OVA, TV series, manga, and movies with their various different continuities, the planet Jurai is almost always home to many of the main characters, yet story arcs that involve the cast actually journeying to Jurai are fairly scarce. It is also quite possible that Toriyama did come up with a storyline set on Namek early on, but only thought up Freeza later. We have seen above how there are signs that Toriyama might not have had Freeza in mind when he first began the Saiyan arc, while we also know for a fact that he came up with the idea of Piccolo being a Namekian long before the Saiyan arc even began. Perhaps the trip to Namek was originally just going to be a short second half to the Saiyan arc, with Vegeta still being the main villain? Or even just a brief epilogue to the series without any real conflict, like the 28th Tenka’ichi Budōkai at the end of the Majin Buu arc?

It seems hard to reconcile the massively long Namek/Freeza arc which we know today with Toriyama’s stated desire that the series only continue for “just a little bit” past the 23rd Tenka’ichi Budōkai. As it turned out, the Saiyan and Freeza arcs ran from 04 October 1988 with the release of chapter 195 in Weekly Shōnen Jump, all the way up to 11 June 1991, with the release of chapter 328 — that makes 32 months, over two-and-a-half years. Meanwhile, the run of the series from the beginning up the end of the 23rd Tenka’ichi Budōkai was 46 months, from 20 November 1984 to 27 September 1988 — if you had been drawing a series for close to four years, drawing it for nearly another three years would not really constitute continuing “for just a little bit”. It is probably safe to say that the Freeza arc as it stands is not really what Toriyama originally had in mind. It is anybody’s guess though as to whether that is because he was not planning on having it at all, or originally envisioned a far shorter and therefore drastically different version of it.

What caused him to continue it on so long? Popularity is again the most obvious candidate. As Toriyama said back in Tankōbon Vol. 7, because of “all the support I’m getting, it seems that I can’t end [Dragon Ball]”. The series was already very popular by the time the Saiyan arc began, and it only took off even more afterwards. It is not for nothing that the “Z” portion of the series gets all the attention it does overseas, and even in Japan these days with Dragon Ball Kai and all the video games. In Shenlong Times #1, Toriyama’s later editor Fuyuto Takeda noted that his predecessor Yū Kondō “became the editor right around the time the Saiyan arc began. At that time, Dragon Ball was explosively popular”, and in Shenlong Times #2 Takeda notes that Kondō came on “when [Toriyama-]sensei began to try and make Dragon Ball more popular through its storyline, and it certainly bore fruit”. The standard story told via Internet rumors is that Dragon Ball‘s popularity forced Toriyama to continue past the Freeza arc, and as we will see in its simplest form this rumor is not really false, but it is far from the whole truth. In reality, it was Dragon Ball‘s massive popularity that forced Toriyama to even draw the Freeza arc to begin with!

edited 13th Dec '15 6:51:36 PM by MadSkillz

Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#31083: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:52:29 PM

[up]In the episode, Gohan does admit that he dropped the ball in that regard. tongue

I always thought Goten and Trunks were born with tails and Chi-Chi and Bulma just insisted on removing them.

The out of universe reason was Oozaru got phased out like a lot of early Dragon Ball elements, so I'm willing to bet that Toriyama didn't even consider giving them tails.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#31084: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:53:33 PM

Yeah, Krillin words ring hollow with Piccolo corpse right next to Gohan.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#31085: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:59:18 PM

This is your champion, Gohan fans. Weep for him.

[up][up] I thought it was more Toriyama forgot.

Although I always missed the look of the tails. I always thought they made the characters look cooler. Example.

edited 13th Dec '15 7:00:49 PM by MadSkillz

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Lionheart0 Since: Oct, 2009 Relationship Status: I'm just a hunk-a, hunk-a burnin' love
#31087: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:03:56 PM

So I have to say, I think Jaco was the real victim of this episode. Bulma was being an asshole not letting him leave.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31088: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:28:12 PM

[up]

Yeah. Even if you don't like Jaco (and I know a lot of people do) what exactly was the point of forcing him to stay?

To paraphrase abridged Krillin, what exactly could he do if he stayed there? He's more useless than everyone else there, and I think even Roshi is more powerful than he is.

Anyway, watched the ep. Gohan nearly dies just going super saiyan (though he'd been made swiss chees earlier, so he's obviously not in good shape) Ginyu returning was a waste since he died seconds later to Vegeta, and it took the whole episode for the fight to actually start.

Not much to say about this.

One Strip! One Strip!
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#31089: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:33:22 PM

Well at least Vegeta now has the honor of having killed the entire Ginyu Force.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31090: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:36:00 PM

Five by five baby!cool

Five out of five Ginyus do not approve!evil grin

In fact, Vegeta pretty much killed off all the big wigs in the planet trade except for Frieza himself.

That's actually pretty cool.

edited 13th Dec '15 7:36:45 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#31091: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:37:17 PM

Kind of a shame. I kind of wanted Ginyu to stick around.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#31092: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:38:52 PM

Just sounds like a waist. What did Ginyu do before Vegeta killed him?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#31093: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:39:54 PM

[up][up]He's lucky he's been around as long as he has been in the first place.

We know in the Manga, he's truly most sincerely dead.

Well, he's dead in the anime as well, but at least he got one last hurrah.

I mean, what about fucking Tagoma. He's now stuck in a Frog body with no conceivable way to return. At least Ginyu had a way to change when he got the opportunity.

Edit: [up] He talked a bit, then got lit up. That's it.

edited 13th Dec '15 7:40:35 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#31094: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:51:27 PM

Roshi doesn't break the fourth wall to say Dragon Ball will continue on a little longer. He says "this isn't the end, not by a long shot."

Now maybe Toriyama had been saying "a little bit longer" behind the scenes, but that's not what he told the audience reading. The only ones to make such insinuation to the public were TOEI themselves.

Buldogue's lawyer
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#31095: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:54:07 PM

I still want to know why the second-in-command of Genocide Inc. does not qualify as "truly evil."

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#31096: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:58:54 PM

Roshi doesn't break the fourth wall to say Dragon Ball will continue on a little longer. He says "this isn't the end, not by a long shot."

The English translation is actually different from what he said in Japanese.

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#31097: Dec 13th 2015 at 8:03:12 PM

Okay. Was the change really that drastic?

Buldogue's lawyer
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#31098: Dec 13th 2015 at 8:13:48 PM

Roshi says no such thing in the manga.

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#31100: Dec 13th 2015 at 8:23:46 PM

Well it wasn't a mistranslation, it was intentional.

The actual line was “This isn’t the last chapter. It’ll continue for just a little bit more.”

It was changed in Viz's version because they knew the manga was going to continue for a lot longer than Toriyama probably thought.

edited 13th Dec '15 8:24:33 PM by MadSkillz


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