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LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#30976: Dec 13th 2015 at 2:58:16 AM

Part 1 is still very much the Goku show. Goku was stronger than Yamcha and Krillin in their first appearances, and the gap only increases from there. If we're looking at Daizenshuu power levels, Goku and Tenshinhan were of equal strength in their fight. But then Piccolo showed up and Goku got a free powerup pretty quickly. Against Piccolo Jr., he does not have a hard time until he lets his guard down and gets a massive hole in his chest as a result.

Goku has always been a bit too much stronger than everyone else.

Oh, yeah, and in Super this week... Piccolo died but don't worry Dragon Balls, Gohan chewed himself out for not training, and I feel like there is too much Vegeta fanservice. But that's probably because I don't really like Vegeta. Or, rather, Super's Vegeta.

edited 13th Dec '15 2:58:37 AM by LOLypop1224

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30977: Dec 13th 2015 at 3:12:52 AM

When Goku fought Tenshinhan, it seemed apparent that while Goku had the speed advantage, Tenshinhan had the strength advantage. Goku also had a clear disadvantage against Roshi, whether the disadvantage was skill-based or power-based is up to debate. King Piccolo and Piccolo Jr also messed him up good, despite being (arguably) a bit weaker.

edited 13th Dec '15 3:13:47 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#30978: Dec 13th 2015 at 5:19:34 AM

[up][up]I guess you could call him...

Super Vegeta.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#30979: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:15:10 AM

When you look at Kuririn vs Piccolo on its own, it looks like a good fight. It used to be a favourite of mine.

However the entire thing is completely fucked up during the Goku vs Piccolo fight:

Chapter: 189, P2.5, P3.1-3
Context: discussing what will happen if Goku loses to Piccolo
Kuririn: “If it comes down to that, we can all gang up and manage something!”
Piccolo: “Kukkukku…You think that you’ll be able to manage something by ganging up on me? Don’t make me laugh! Even if there were a hundred of the likes of you, you’d still be no match. God included. I’m already in a completely different dimension than you!”
Kame-sennin: “Unfortunately, he’s right...Goku is the only one able to take in those stupendously fast movements of his…”

Furthermore, at the very end of the fight, both Goku and Piccolo are severely injured and on their last legs. He's only a punch and headbutt away from being totally defeated.

It's at this point that the entire group decides to forget Goku's wishes and jump in, and he easily swats them aside with an energy blast so they give up. Even in that condition, the entire group is powerless to interact with him.

Fighters of Kuririn's caliber being a threat to his reign my ass. They can't fucking touch his true power.

And yeah, this would also mean what Piccolo showed in his fight with Kuririn was less power than he was had leftover when he was nearly defeated. That just kills any merit Kuririn had in that fight.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30980: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:35:30 AM

No it doesn't. Is Goku vs Perfect Cell invalidated as a cool fight because Cell was holding back a ton of his power the whole time?

Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#30981: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:36:26 AM

[up] Or Piccolo vs 2nd form Frieza?

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#30982: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:44:12 AM

[up] hahahahaha oh god yes

[up][up] No, because Cell wasn't hiding nearly as much power which lead to Goku actually being able to hurt him and exhaust him for realsies.

At the same time, more emphasis was put on the fact that Goku could not beat Cell at all, and all of his efforts were framed as crushing his hope spots rather than how he can still pull off good moves.

The fact that Cell wasn't at full power accentuates the point of the fight: Goku was outclassed.

Narratively speaking there is a world of difference between showing "This character can do something, but look they can't win" and "This character can't win, but look they can do something". I Am Not Left-Handed supports the main point of the former, and weakens the main point of the latter.

edited 13th Dec '15 6:46:20 AM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30983: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:49:23 AM

I heavily disagree with every fiber of my being.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#30984: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:51:36 AM

That's meaningless to me without an argument.

Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#30985: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:53:25 AM

Damn it, Psycho normally offers popcorn around this time.

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30986: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:55:33 AM

I think that, if a person does well in a fight, whether they win or lose, that should reflect positively on them regardless of whether or not their opponent held back.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#30987: Dec 13th 2015 at 6:58:27 AM

I don't see that argument at all when everything they did is a direct result of how much their opponent held back.

Literally, I could put up a better fight against Piccolo if Piccolo was holding back enough to allow that to happen. That would not be worthy of any form of praise.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30988: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:00:48 AM

It would DEFINITELY be if you were skilled enough to challenge Piccolo, even if he was holding back greatly!

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#30989: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:05:54 AM

I wouldn't need skill to challenge him if he held back enough. That's what I'm saying. You can't measure skill accurately against something whose power is whatever they whim it to be.

He could be the superior in skill and strength, but by holding back enough, it'd still look good on my part. The world's most skilled toddler would still be easily and gleefully beaten to death by me.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30990: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:09:05 AM

All I care about is whether the fight looks cool and showcases both parties' abilities or not. Almost every single fight in ALL the Tenkaichi Budokai's falls under this qualifier.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#30991: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:11:11 AM

That just seems like a very shallow criteria to me.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30992: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:19:23 AM

Fun thing about Goku vs Cell is that despite being weaker Goku would have won if not for Cell hax regen. Goes to show how skilled and cunning fighter Goku is.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#30993: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:23:01 AM

Then he gave Cell a Senzu Bean.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30994: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:26:39 AM

Because he knew that being fully powered isn't going to help Cell at all against Gohan, which turned out to be exactly on point.

Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#30995: Dec 13th 2015 at 7:38:46 AM

Well I suppose there was no harm done. It's not like anyone died or got tortured horribly because of what Goku did.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#30996: Dec 13th 2015 at 8:29:04 AM

Nikkolas, can you please not; every time you come into this thread, its to shit on Goku and praise how much better Yu Yu Hakusho is. Can you just talk about Dragon Ball straight for once.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30997: Dec 13th 2015 at 8:29:37 AM

It does seem strange for Piccolo to say Krillin might be a threat, while still stating there was no chance for any of them to stop an exhausted, battered half dead Piccolo when all of them were fresh.

Hell, it's crazy to think that even a Piccolo who's that weak is still totally out of their league. Toriyama was setting the power level bar high even before Frieza.

Maybe he needed to vary things a little more; have some arcs with minions serving the main villain who can do things said villain can't quite do......

No. We've had this discussion too much. Not much point. Dragon ball isn't that kind of show, and I'm not going to change that by making the same arguments over and over again.

Of course, this revelation may not stop me next time, but that's how it goes sometimes.tongue

edited 13th Dec '15 8:30:33 AM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#30998: Dec 13th 2015 at 8:53:59 AM

[up][up] Correction: I only hate Adult Goku. Kid Goku is awesome.

I won't deny I have a negative view of DBZ, mainly because I consider it a fully justified view. If there can be entire pages of people just shitting on Naruto or Fairy Till, I don't feel terribly out of place just being one poster talking about how bad this series is.

But it be unfair to say it is completely terrible. There are some good things in Part 2. People were talking about Super Buu a page ago, right? He was a good villain. I liked that he actually used strategy and cunning. He was smart enough to realize he wasn't that smart.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#30999: Dec 13th 2015 at 8:56:35 AM

If Toriyama never pretended there was some tension whenever Goku didn't fight there'd be no reason to care about anyone else's fights but Goku's. We know anything else the other characters do won't really have much impact and they're just holding the line until Goku shows up to save their asses.

Now granted, it leads to some stupid, stupid decisions but that's really just Dragon Ball in a nutshell; villain shows up, supporting characters job to him, Goku saves the day, indirectly or otherwise.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
HamburgerTime Since: Apr, 2010
#31000: Dec 13th 2015 at 8:58:11 AM

I really can see both sides of the minions debate. Some think it's great that minions give the side characters time to shine. Others think they slow the pacing to a crawl with fights that are mostly foregone conclusions. The Fake Karakura Town arc in Bleach was particularly criticized for this, with not just the henchmen but the henchmen's henchmen getting their own spotlight fights.


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