TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#30726: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:47:10 PM

Freeza's "upgrades" took a few months at most and were mostly done to keep him alive after he had been cut to pieces and blasted into the core of a planet three times the size of Earth, which then exploded rather than to "upgrade" him

The androids were a sixteen year project, and given that's just the sixteen years spent trying to make one good enough to kill Goku, it's likely they were in work much longer than even that. It's not a fair comparison.

Earth's super geniuses can do better things than general PTO (and, presumably, Galactic Patrol) technology when they put their mind and decades of their lives to it and that is very impressive, but general PTO and Galactic Patrol technology is much better than general Earth technology.

Buldogue's lawyer
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#30727: Dec 9th 2015 at 5:03:24 PM

So, basically, the PTO wins in the average tech level, but humans have the best specialists.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#30728: Dec 9th 2015 at 5:04:27 PM

Indeed.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30729: Dec 9th 2015 at 5:10:25 PM

Humans are more motivated.

The PTO is run by the most powerful warrior in the entire universe, who hires the most powerful warriors in the entire universe. They don't need super-weapons, they just need decent gear for their grunts and transportation to get their planet-killing super-mutants where they need to go.

The Earth, meanwhile, is an incredibly weak planet that spent a couple decades hosting a growing Saiyan, becoming more and more aware of their complete impotence on a galactic scale. Their most powerful military was wiped out by this Saiyan child almost effortlessly. Their greatest martial artists were quickly surpassed. They were only ever going to be able to compete by sciencing up the most powerful super-weapons conceivable.

The scientists who rebuilt Frieza knew that all they needed to do was get Frieza back in working order and the fact that he's Frieza would handle the rest.

Dr. Gero looked at Goku, looked at the humans he was working with, and knew the technology had to do a lot of heavy lifting if it was ever going to overcome his Saiyan might.

edited 9th Dec '15 5:12:30 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#30730: Dec 9th 2015 at 9:30:25 PM

I mean, Tarble and Gine exist. So I think it's a little late for that. All the edge of that intended message is gone.

Ugh, do they have to exist?

All series, Saiyans were built up as this big, badass race with a legendary transformation. Yeah, they were extinct? Why? Because Frieza feared them. It turns out there's actually a sub-group of really nice Saiyans.

What happened to "they sent Goku to earth because he had a pathetic power level?" These were the Saiyans, the scumbags! These were people you didn't feel sorry for.

The poetic justice of Goku, one of Vegeta's last sons, returning to face down Frieza, not as a representative of his warrior race, but as a compassionate (if vengeful) champion? Undone! Goku is, in fact, just the product of two arguably nice Saiyans! People that Frieza had no business fearing. His race wasn't really that fierce or one-dimensional after all. Goku just happened to be one of the nice saiyans, not playing against type, who happened to come back from the dead really, really strong with an axe to grind.

Not only that, but Gine, the housewife, cooks and cleans while Bardock goes off to be a space warrior.

Yeah, it's nice to finally meet Goku's mom, but come on!

edited 9th Dec '15 9:31:43 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#30731: Dec 9th 2015 at 10:12:30 PM

[up]That's why I prefer the DBM version of Goku's Mom: Hanasia FTW!

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#30732: Dec 9th 2015 at 10:16:55 PM

I um...honestly prefer Gine. >_>

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#30733: Dec 9th 2015 at 10:22:45 PM

[up]Hey man, you're welcome to prefer whoever you choose. Any particular reason?

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#30734: Dec 9th 2015 at 10:39:31 PM

Honestly, I just like the concept of a nice Saiyan being Goku's mother. Plus, she's a lunch lady for a planet of people who eat as much as Goku; remember how much Goku eats on a regular basis, now multiple that by how many Saiyans existed at that time. Gine honestly had to have dealt with a lot more hungry Saiyans than Chi-Chi ever does.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30735: Dec 9th 2015 at 10:41:33 PM

Gine isn't unexplanedly the second strongest Saiyan alive who can also beat up the strongest (who's just a random OC) easily.

I prefer Dragon Ball Minus because it keeps the Saiyans as villains while also not painting them as Always Chaotic Evil. Also, Bardock isn't NEARLY so much of a Marty Stu: Goku's father who's also somehow around King Vegeta's level despite being low-class, and whom also gets psychic powers that just so happen to allow him to see that his son will challenge Freeza?! Minus' Bardock is much more of an average Joe.

Besides, where was it said that Gine didn't like her job? I got the impression that she just wasn't great at fighting and was an unusually nice Saiyan to other Saiyans. She probably had no moral qualms with breaking skulls.

edited 9th Dec '15 10:43:35 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#30736: Dec 9th 2015 at 10:59:08 PM

Bardock was still conquering planets. Tarble was still sent off for being weak. Your point stands with Gine, but she didn't become a housewife out of the goodness of her heart but because she survived to adulthood despite sucking at fighting because this man kept saving her. Bardock and Gine's romance was odd for saiyans but that doesn't make them good people. My biggest problem with Dragon Ball Minus is that it sends age three Kakarot off in armor, forever ruining the image of baby Goku in my head.

That's what a Dragon Ball sequel prequel should have been. A time traveling monster who increases it's power by preying on those lost to society. The street walkers, the fugitives, the refugees, the missing in action, the terminally ill, the low class saiyan warriors. It promises them great things, eternal health, eternal youth, the opportunity to enjoy life in ways they never imagined possible while they are at their absolute weakest. But while they think they are experiencing benefits they are really fooled by psychic illusions while it spirits them away and drains their essence away until there is not a trace left to recover. It only picks the least important, those who can no longer "meaningfully" affect history, those who never would have amounted to anything anyway or those who "should" be destroyed for the benefit of everyone else, and so it morally justifies it's choice of diet while remaining off the radar. It changes history very little or actively makes the timeline better but often doesn't do the research and thus is slowly but surely making things worse, creating the Crapsaccharine World we call Dragon Ball. It is finally defeated by the protagonist(s) before it can irreversibly terminate two saiyains, but the best that can be done is revert them to infancy. This leaves the protagonists with a moral dilemma. Send the two to planets where they were already likely to die with an even higher chance for death now that they are even younger, admit that in this case the monster was right and finish what it started with the two saiyans, or send them back on their way and hope it results in a Close-Enough Timeline. The two saiyans grow up to be Goku and Tarble. In the highly unlikely event I have to chance to influence anyone who works on Dragon Ball in anyway I will incessantly insist for some kind of Retcon that ensures Goku will be a baby when he arrives on Earth. As nice as it was to see a middle finger extended towards the Broly movie, some things shouldn't be changed.

edited 9th Dec '15 11:00:10 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#30737: Dec 9th 2015 at 11:01:14 PM

...except Goku not being a baby when he's sent to Earth really doesn't change anything.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30738: Dec 9th 2015 at 11:30:03 PM

He was still a wild kid, and he still hit his head and got brain damage.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#30739: Dec 10th 2015 at 12:13:53 AM

Notice how despite how many revisions to Superman's story there are, he's constantly been sent to Earth as a baby. I can't really describe it, but if you sent him there as a teenager, or a toddler, it wouldn't work. Superman is always a baby. Yeah, you could change that and Clark would still land near the Kents and grow up in Smallville and become Superman, but it's just one of the more nostalgic, iconic elements of his backstory, nobody really messes with.

So Goku's three, and has Saiyan armor. Where did the Saiyan armor go? He ate it. He outgrew it and threw it away.

Goku being sent as a baby that Bardock didn't particularly care about made a lot more sense to me than, "his parents kept him in an incubator for three years and Bardock suddenly had a premonition, so he sent him off-world."

Why did they think they would be caught by scouters while Goku would be fine, did Raditz lower their expectations that much?

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30740: Dec 10th 2015 at 12:43:24 AM

Goku's not Superman. Besides, Smallville had Clark land as a toddler.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30741: Dec 10th 2015 at 1:33:50 AM

Earth is considered a backwater planet in the Galaxy with primitive tech. It's really no different from golden age comics where you had moder Earth and then Lex Luthor Mc Gayvers a portable time machine in prison cell.

Okay, first, most warfare is based on resources.

You know, that's a good point, I could see that being a reason for war. Here you have Tuffels, who have build an advanced, prosperous civilization, overcome the environmental problems associated with that, and are living peacefully enjoying their hard earned prosperity. Then Sayians show up, see all that Tuffels have build, their riches and how convenient their lives are and are like "Hey, we are bigger and stronger than those guys! Lets take their stuff!" and attack. Except by the end of the war there's almost nothing left from the Tuffel achievements for Sayians to enjoy so they turn their gaze upon the star. "Hmm, there got to be some profit in beating up people out there." And the rest is as they say history.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30742: Dec 10th 2015 at 2:22:08 AM

That was probably King Vegeta's motive to some extent, yeah.

I mean, the fact of the matter is that the Saiyans didn't seem to have a lot to survive off of to start with. And the Tuffles weren't doing much to help out.

If the Saiyans were starving and had no food, and the Tuffles had all the food and weren't offering to share it, then the Saiyans wouldn't have had a lot of choice.

Frankly it'd even fit into the "slavery" idea. If a Saiyan wanted Tuffle food, then they'd have to go to the Tuffles and offer to work for them. Instead of being paid they would be fed. And if they wanted to leave afterwards they could be punished or executed or locked up.

edited 10th Dec '15 6:09:00 AM by unnoun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30743: Dec 10th 2015 at 7:46:04 AM

What happened to "they sent Goku to earth because he had a pathetic power level?" These were the Saiyans, the scumbags! These were people you didn't feel sorry for.

It wasn't really that mean-spirited. They sent Goku to Earth because Earth had such a pathetic power level that a child of his low caliber could handle it. It wasn't, "He's a weakling, send him to go die on some f*cking rock," so much as measuring the Earth's Challenge Rating and sending an equivalent-leveled Saiyan to grind some XP on human bones.

Goku being sent to Earth was a harsh judgment of Earth, not of Goku. Even Raditz, as much as everyone loves the "Raditz is Saiyan Nappa" jokes, went to his grave honestly believing his companions would try to take Earth's Dragon Balls so that they could resurrect him - and, if Nappa were in charge, he would have been right.

Honestly, I just like the concept of a nice Saiyan being Goku's mother. Plus, she's a lunch lady for a planet of people who eat as much as Goku; remember how much Goku eats on a regular basis, now multiple that by how many Saiyans existed at that time. Gine honestly had to have dealt with a lot more hungry Saiyans than Chi-Chi ever does.

Logistics!

I passionately hate the fact that the only pure Saiyan female character we've ever met is a non-combat housewife, but the flipside of that coin is this: even in a warrior society, not everyone can be a warrior. Some people have to do the work to sustain a civilization.

Toei's Saiyans are basically Krogans, who have no interests beyond murdering everything all the time, but that's stupidly unsustainable. If the Saiyans were like that, the Tuffles wouldn't have needed to fight a war with them in the first place; they would have wiped themselves out a long time ago.

It keeps the Saiyans as villains while also not painting them as Always Chaotic Evil.

This. All of this. The Saiyans were a bastard race of genocidal bastards, but they weren't Orcs. They had a civilization. They had relationships with each other.

I mean, yes, Tarble was exiled for being pathetic, but given Vegeta's status as an outstandingly evil bastard whose cruelty shocked and horrified other Saiyans, his family probably shouldn't be considered the standard for Saiyan behavior.

You know, that's a good point, I could see that being a reason for war. Here you have Tuffels, who have build an advanced, prosperous civilization, overcome the environmental problems associated with that, and are living peacefully enjoying their hard earned prosperity. Then Sayians show up, see all that Tuffels have build, their riches and how convenient their lives are and are like "Hey, we are bigger and stronger than those guys! Lets take their stuff!" and attack. Except by the end of the war there's almost nothing left from the Tuffel achievements for Sayians to enjoy so they turn their gaze upon the star. "Hmm, there got to be some profit in beating up people out there." And the rest is as they say history.

The Saiyans joined the PTO immediately after the war ended, so they wouldn't need to gaze upon the stars. Frieza came right to them and offered them a job.

edited 10th Dec '15 7:48:56 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#30744: Dec 10th 2015 at 7:57:46 AM

Gine is honestly a better character to me than Hanasia.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30745: Dec 10th 2015 at 8:01:02 AM

The first impression we ever get of Saiyans is from Raditz who explains them as genocide dealers, killing planets and selling them. This is before Toriyama came up with the PTO, and is sort of a precursor to the concept.

Think about that impression, though. That is the Saiyans as initially conceived. They kill everything on a planet and then sell it. That tells us that, at the very least, two professions of Saiyans must exist: Saiyan genocide warriors and Saiyan real estate agents.

Imagine a Saiyan in a business suit holding a clipboard and trying to sell you on the prospect of this fine piece of land. Sounds ridiculous, right? But Toei's Saiyans would just be breaking faces with the clipboard and shouting, "BUY MY PLANET OR I WILL BREAK YOUR SPINE, RAAAAAAAAGH!" That is not a business, that's just more genocide.

edited 10th Dec '15 8:02:00 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#30746: Dec 10th 2015 at 8:24:43 AM

Comparing Gine to Hanasia is like comparing standard pop music to something behind this pothole. The former is undesirable, but alright, if expected. The latter is... yeah.

[up]Okay, that mental image made me laugh.

edited 10th Dec '15 8:29:15 AM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
Cortez from Parts Unknown (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#30747: Dec 10th 2015 at 8:36:08 AM

I like that there were nice Saiyans, just because most of them were evil doesn't mean they all were.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30748: Dec 10th 2015 at 8:49:35 AM

The arguments in favour of Gine are interesting.

I mean, yes, I suppose that even in a warrior society, not everyone could be a warrior. They were gonna be a few who weren't much for fighting.

I don't even mind that there's a female saiyan who's the equivalent of a housewife.

My issue is that one of the few relevant female Saiyan's is just a weak fighter and a housewife. Toriyama has a thing for housewives, since a lot of his female characters become one.

Hell, she could have still been a great warrior and a fighter while being gentle. No need for her to be weak. That would have made her even more of an outlier.

Then again, Gine being nothing special probably emphasizes how Goku himself, despite achieving such power, started out as below average by Saiyan standards.

Hmmm. Gonna have to think on this.

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30749: Dec 10th 2015 at 8:54:15 AM

My issue is that one of the few relevant female Saiyan's is just a weak fighter and a housewife. Toriyama has a thing for housewives, since a lot of his female characters become one.

That's my issue with it too. Gine is a complicated character. There is a lot to like and a lot not to like about her, and for the most part, they're the same things.

And it's not so much Toriyama having a thing for housewives as it is Japan. Japan is big on the idea that female success is housewife. Women are expected to have careers only until such a time as they can land a husband, which is preferably before they turn 25 - because at that point, they're old and unmarryable.

Toriyama's female characters all give up whatever they were doing to marry and become a housewife because that's what his cultural values dictate is a happy ending for them. That's part of what makes things like 18 having to Stay in the Kitchen so agitating: because Toriyama almost certainly doesn't think of it as disrespectful to 18 and, if anything, probably thinks that it demonstrates how great her and Krillin's marriage is.

Values Dissonance is a difficult foe to slay, even by civil rights standards.

edited 10th Dec '15 8:57:24 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#30750: Dec 10th 2015 at 9:25:46 AM

Goku's not Superman. Besides, Smallville had Clark land as a toddler.

And we all know how well that show was received! evil grin

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

Total posts: 130,800
Top