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Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#30701: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:25:08 PM

All I know is that tuffles sound like they were probably delicious. Isn't that enough of a reason for a war?

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30702: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:25:49 PM

...If you're a Saiyan, yeah, probably.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30703: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:26:09 PM

Assuming that all the filler backstory regarding the Tuffles is canon, I think the blame is about 70% Saiyans, 30% Tuffles. No war is 100% Black-and-White Morality, not in Real Life and not in most fiction.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30704: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:26:15 PM

[up][up][up]That answers that mystery. Close the book, everybody. Case solved.

edited 9th Dec '15 3:26:35 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#30705: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:37:08 PM

Well, maybe, but since Unoun has made me watch twenty minutes of video game cutscenes I have to say I really like the narrative of a bunch of idiot brutes too busy being stupid to realize they are being oppressed and one smart guy trying to liberate them, which he does by forcing a conflict that leads to the tuffles being in the path of their full moon rampages, most of which will be mindless rampages because only elites can actually control the transformation.

It comes off like a deliciously dark comedy. And one based on dialog from video game cutscenes and Fridge Logic.

edited 9th Dec '15 3:39:12 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30706: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:43:58 PM

I mean, you're the first person who said "deserved" and "justified" here, in this post so I honestly don't want to hear this coming from you.

I was only recounting what the moral of history of Sayians as told by King Kai was, which isn't really up for much interpretation when it literally ends with "And then God decided they were wicked and dropped a rock on them" like some kind of biblical story.

Which of course turned out to be not true and a plot hole but that has no bearing on what the massage was at that point. But let's leave that alone, since you say it's not the main point of the argument.

Let me make my stance clear so there's no confusion: The only bit of evidence of Tsuffules being oppressors is a line from Vegeta and he wasn't even there. And you know what they say about history written by the victors. Meanwhile Sayians are violent by nature and it didn't take them long after the war to gear up their entire civilization towards unprovoked genocide, so them starting a war with no provocation seems more than plausible. Could there be some preexisting conflicts between the races prior to the war? Possibly, we don't know enough to discard that possibility completely. But reanimating the whole conflict as some sort of class warfare or even a full blown slave rebellion goes way too far into revisionist territory and subtly shifts most of the blame on Tsuffules (because who doesn't support lower classes fighting oppression or rebelling slaves) for no good reason, for me to accept. It might be a interesting idea for a fanfic, but it's not much to do with canon.

Well that's that. Now can we please end this topic? I have things to do.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30707: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:45:04 PM

[up][up]And that's basically exactly why I think it fits in the context of Dragon Ball.

edited 9th Dec '15 3:45:16 PM by unnoun

alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#30708: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:47:11 PM

I wonder if those giant bug people in the fillers tasted like shrimp.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30709: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:50:43 PM

That Sayians eat humanoid, intelligent beings is canon btw. First time we see Vegeta he's munching on some alien who's ray gun is lying nearby.

So yeah, Tsuffules were delicious could very well be the reason for war.

Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#30710: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:51:02 PM

[up][up]They probably tasted like bugs.

edited 9th Dec '15 3:53:23 PM by Anomalocaris20

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30711: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:55:42 PM

Vegeta may not have been there, but it wasn't exactly very long ago either. He was born two years after the war ended.

Nappa actually was there. Vegeta's right-hand man is old enough to remember the Tuffles and to have fought in the war.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30713: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:59:00 PM

Also of interest: the Saiyans joined the PTO immediately after the end of the Tuffle war. So that's another possible motive for the genocide: It may have been a proving test from Frieza.

edited 9th Dec '15 3:59:40 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
alekos23 Since: Mar, 2013
#30714: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:02:45 PM

Can't have the Tuffles develop too much tech tongue

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30715: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:03:28 PM

And you know what they say about history written by the victors. Meanwhile Sayians are violent by nature and it didn't take them long after the war to gear up their entire civilization towards unprovoked genocide, so them starting a war with no provocation seems more than plausible.

But then why bother to create a source of provocation? The Saiyans don't strike me as a group that cared about justifying themselves, why do so there unless they at least genuinely believed it to be the case? It doesn't fit the Saiyans and their style, or their Modus Operandi.

Like, Frieza might have a reason to lie when he kills someone because, while he wants to be feared, he also wants to be respected as a refined gentleman. The Saiyans don't care about refinement or morality. They don't like admitting when someone's gotten the better of them.

A version of the story where the Saiyans were controlled by their enemies and enslaved wouldn't make the Saiyans look good by Saiyan standards. It would make them look weak.

Could there be some preexisting conflicts between the races prior to the war? Possibly, we don't know enough to discard that possibility completely. But reanimating the whole conflict as some sort of class warfare or even a full blown slave rebellion goes way too far into revisionist territory and subtly shifts most of the blame on Tsuffules (because who doesn't support lower classes fighting oppression or rebelling slaves) for no good reason, for me to accept.

Okay, first, most warfare is based on resources. Haves and have-nots. People need or want things, so they go to war to get them. Even in King Kai's story the Tuffles were positioned as the haves, and the Saiyans as the have-nots. The Tuffles had the cities and the technology and the fertile land and the water. The Saiyans had each other, (and seemingly didn't like each other that much) they had animal pelts, and they had rocks. And mountains. And plateaus. And dirt. And shit. That King Kai seems to think his story paints the Saiyans as villains says a lot more about him and his priorities, given his favorite possession is his car.

Of course, it also says a fair amount about Toei. And the culture they create in. But that's another topic entirely.

The detail that the Saiyans were actively oppressed and enslaved. Doesn't really change that much in where the blame lies.

As for who doesn't support the lower classes and rebelling slaves, the obvious answer would be the upper classes and slave owners.

Like gods, if there are any.

And hey, I think there might be one or two of those in Dragon Ball.

It might be a interesting idea for a fanfic, but it's not much to do with canon.

I mean, it depends on how you define "canon". Again, none of this is based on the manga.

You also assume I give a damn about "canon" to begin with and. I'm sorry, have we met? Hi, I'm unnoun, and I say that canon is a false prophet, a great beast, the father of lies the source of all evil, yadda yadda, etcetera etcetera, even I'm tired of this whole song and dance routine by now.

Also of interest: the Saiyans joined the PTO immediately after the end of the Tuffle war. So that's another possible motive for the genocide: It may have been a proving test from Frieza.

So clearly Frieza was scared of the Tuffles and Saiyans working together.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#30716: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:03:53 PM

[up][up][up]And considering how heavily the PTO uses scouters, a Tuffle invention, it does seem reasonable why the PTO would want the Tuffles specifically exterminated; nobody to stop them from taking their technology.

edited 9th Dec '15 4:04:20 PM by BaffleBlend

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30717: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:10:16 PM

Seems risky though.

What if the Saiyans stepped on all the Scouters?

With their giant several thousand ton monkey feet?

edited 9th Dec '15 4:10:40 PM by unnoun

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30718: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:11:57 PM

Fact of the matter is, we know nothing about the Tuffles outside of a bit of filler, some non-cannon Ova stuff, and what little Toriyama has bothered to tell us when he bothers to take the time to really think about it.

We'll never really know anything else until he comes back to it, and it's unlikely he ever will unless it serves a purpose in his narrative, so until then, any theory is valid, kinda in the same way any opinion about how strong Tagoma got (it's possible because we don't know that his species can't be that strong, or it's dumb because just because we don't know it's not possible doesn't mean it's justified) is valid.

......I'm just glad we aren't talking about Power Levels.

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30719: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:13:39 PM

I am so glad.

Seriously, if one of you had tried talking power levels it could have made me go away maybe.

It is my kryptonite.

Boo.

Hiss.

edited 9th Dec '15 4:14:03 PM by unnoun

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#30720: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:14:45 PM

So, how powerful is the Super Saiyan God multiplier, considering the massive boost it got in Super?

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#30721: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:14:49 PM

Fact of the matter is, potatoes and salt go good together, and I am now wearing slippers.

You are now imagining Vegeta coming out of the bathroom wearing pink bunny fuzzy slippers and his Bad Man shirt.

You are welcome.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
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#30722: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:15:05 PM

That writes itself doesn't it.

King Vegeta: Instead of depopulating this planet, we could join you in your depopulation business.

Freeza soldier: Saiyan monkey, that the tuffles still exist proves you would be of no use.

KV: So that's it then? I swear to you the tuffle will be extinct in eight years time!

FS:Foolish monkey...I don't have to report back to planet Freeza #99 for another ten years, so I'll give you another two for cushion. Ten years monkey, then all the primates will die if half of them aren't gone!

Buldogue's lawyer
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30723: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:15:32 PM

Human tech > Space tech.

Tuffle tech = Space tech.

Tuffle tech = non-Oozaru Saiyans.

Human Tech > non-Oozaru Saiyans.

edited 9th Dec '15 4:15:48 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#30724: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:16:38 PM

...there are so many leaps of logic in that, I don't even know where to begin.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30725: Dec 9th 2015 at 4:24:05 PM

[up][up]I dunno about that exactly.

I think standard issue guns and lasers in the PTO might be a little better than a lot of the stuff on Earth. Although, I suppose neither is a threat to our heroes, so I can't actually tell.

PTO spaceships are ridiculously fast. And there's the healing pods.

Yeah, Earth has Senzu Beans, but before those were ready Goku had to stay in the hospital on life support.

...Earth scientists can create perpetual motion and unlimited energy, shrink watches, time machines that split the timeline to the shock of the deity in charge of time, capsules that are bigger on the inside, and whatever the fuck Cell is. Earth tech violates the laws of nature.

Like, when you compare Frieza's cybernetic modifications to Gero's androids, there's not much contest. Frieza looks like they just glued him back together with whatever they had lying around. The Androids are not only stronger than Frieza was, but sleeker and better looking aesthetically. Even the doll. And whatever the fuck Cell is. Like, yeah Cell was an ugly-ass bug monster but he was at least consistent and symmetrical.

...Also, the only technology we know the PTO got from the Tuffles was the Scouters. Tuffle guns could have been better than PTO guns or worse. I honestly don't know.

edited 9th Dec '15 4:25:02 PM by unnoun


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