TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#30676: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:41:32 PM

When has Android 8 ever had a handbag?

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30677: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:41:45 PM

...Seriously, if our Vegeta had ever actually become King he would probably have blown up the planet before Frieza or Beerus ever got a chance to.

If King Vegeta was supposed to be smart, well. He didn't pass it on very well.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:44:07 PM by unnoun

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30678: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:43:02 PM

If Vegeta actually became a Super Sayian and killed Freeza on Namek I'm sure he would go on to become just as big of a tyrant as he.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30679: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:43:13 PM

Want to talk narrative focus? How about that the recount of the war wasn't some heroic tale brave sayians overthrowing their oppressors, but a first in a long line of atrocities that made their annihilation a good thing.

That was the entire point of the story "Sayians were assholes, they did horrible things, then they were wiped out, good riddance."

See, you keep trying to make a False Dichotomy where either the Saiyans or the Tuffles must be innocent victims in all this, but that has nothing to do with the argument you are trying to oppose.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:43:53 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30680: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:45:42 PM

Want to talk narrative focus? How about that the recount of the war wasn't some heroic tale brave sayians overthrowing their oppressors, but a first in a long line of atrocities that made their annihilation a good thing.

That was the entire point of the story "Sayians were assholes, they did horrible things, then they were wiped out, good riddance."

I mean, there's also the part where Vegeta talks about how the Saiyans were used by Frieza and forced to serve him, before he wiped them out.

Then Goku says he'll fight for Vegeta, and for all the Saiyans that Frieza killed.

So, like.

...And, again, that's the version of the story told by King Kai, who thought the planet was blown up by a meteor, and who was telling the story in response to questions asked by Goku, a Saiyan that King Kai was training to beat up other Saiyans.

I don't think King Kai would have wanted to make them too sympathetic.

And Goku does end up respecting the Saiyans. And he ends up respecting Vegeta's Saiyan pride too, and tries to make it his own.

I don't deny that the Saiyans probably did dickish things, but.

I like the idea that there's some gray in there.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:48:12 PM by unnoun

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30681: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:47:57 PM

Trying to make it into a ethically gray conflict of morally equivalent enemies just takes the edge of what I think was the intended message of "Sayians were horrible people even before Freeza, it's a good thing they died, universe is a better place now that they are gone and it's all the more amazing that Goku became a good guy."

[up]And yet Goku considers getting wiped out a just price for Sayian sins.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:49:55 PM by Shlugo_the_great

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#30682: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:53:33 PM

[up] Jesus- Goku

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#30683: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:53:56 PM

District Nine would imply saiyans had technology Tuffles wanted. Saiyans only being able to copy Tuffle technology is much more inline with Planet Of The Apes...though the crashed spaceship full of violent simpletons too simple to use it with one smart guy and his son does lend itself more to District Nine...

edited 9th Dec '15 2:54:38 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30684: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:54:48 PM

If Goku was the savior nobody would pin him up to a cross is what I'm saying.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30685: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:56:03 PM

Trying to make it into a ethically gray conflict of morally equivalent enemies just takes the edge of what I think was the intended message of "Sayians were horrible people even before Freeza, it's a good thing they died, universe is a better place now that they are gone and it's all the more amazing that Goku became a good guy."

I mean, Tarble and Gine exist. So I think it's a little late for that. All the edge of that intended message is gone.

Even Nappa and Raditz were less evil than Vegeta.

Nappa, who was supposedly alive during the war, remember, was shocked by how callous and cruel Vegeta was.

And now Nappa's in Hell, and Vegeta goes to cookouts and gets laid once a day.

Karma's a bitch.

...I mean, Vegeta also did that Bingo song that one time so. In all honesty it's possible Nappa got off easy. When you think about it.

I mean, I don't see how the conflict being morally gray takes the edge off that message to begin with, mind. Just because the Tuffles deserved it (possibly) doesn't mean the Saiyans didn't also deserve it. Just because the Saiyans deserved it doesn't mean Frieza didn't also deserve it.

Sometimes a bunch of jerks are on opposite sides. Still all jerks though.

Like, the fact that Tarble and Gine exist sorta takes away the "all Saiyans were evil and deserved to be eradicated" thing automatically though, because Tarble and Gine were Saiyans, weren't evil, and didn't deserve to be eradicated.

The Saiyans as a whole, culturally, socially, were dangerous and violent. Ending that violence was a net positive thing.

But it's not like Frieza's hands were clean either.

edited 9th Dec '15 3:38:07 PM by unnoun

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#30686: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:57:13 PM

None of this would have ever happened if the Tuffles and Saiyans just talked about their differences.

Conclusions: Saiyans are assholes, Tuffles are assholes and they both deserved their fate. It just so happens that a few of the main characters are also saiyans while no main characters are tuffles, so clearly we're meant to sympathize with the Saiyans :V

[up][up][up][up] That reeks of Protagonist-Centered Morality you know.[

edited 9th Dec '15 2:57:42 PM by BlackYakuzu94

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#30687: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:59:27 PM

though the crashed spaceship full of violent simpletons too simple to use it with one smart guy and his son does lend itself more to District Nine...

That's kind of what I was getting at.

That and a biologically more advanced race that's also disorganized being forced to live in slums and whatnot.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
JonnasN from Porto, Portugal Since: Jul, 2012
#30688: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:00:58 PM

If Goku was the saviour, I would certainly expect people to question the part where he proposed to a girl by gently tapping her lady-parts.

This thread gets weird sometimes.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30689: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:04:57 PM

Trying to make it into a ethically gray conflict of morally equivalent enemies just takes the edge of what I think was the intended message of "Sayians were horrible people even before Freeza, it's a good thing they died, universe is a better place now that they are gone and it's all the more amazing that Goku became a good guy."

Perhaps it does, but keep in mind that said message was largely invented by Toei.

In the manga, Kaio-sama never tells the story of the Saiyans and Tuffles at all. The story of how Planet Vegeta was destroyed by a meteor comes from Raditz, who skims over it while he's explaining where he and Goku came from and why the Saiyans need Goku to come back and help.

Toriyama came up with the Tuffles and their extinction outside of the manga and mentions it in the Daizenshuu, but Toei fleshed it out and built up the narrative that the Saiyans were such irredeemable terrors of a species that their God summoned the giant meteor to wipe them from existence.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30690: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:07:00 PM

Nappa also wiped a whole city first thing after arriving on Earth so that says more of how repugnant Vegeta was even to someone like that than anything positive about Nappa.

Like seriously, you have little evidence and a lot of speculation, which I normally wouldn't even care, but then you go and start arguing that Tuffels were deserving of a fucking genocide. Like holy shit, were are talking about genocide here, you shouldn't throw around words like "deserved" or "justified" as lightly as you do. I find it rather disturbing truth be told.

With that said, let's end this topic now, because frankly, I'm sick of it.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#30691: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:07:27 PM

@Piando

Uh...can I buy a vowel?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#30692: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:07:46 PM

lol blewd up filthy monkey planet

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#30693: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:07:46 PM

@Shlugo Good thing it was a Sunday though or else someone might have gotten killed.

edited 9th Dec '15 3:08:01 PM by MadSkillz

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#30694: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:09:21 PM

Man, these earthlings run away fast!

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30695: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:11:10 PM

He destroyed the Cargo Helicopter.

AND THE CARGO WAS PEOPLE!

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30696: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:11:43 PM

I'm not sure where anyone has said "The Tuffles deserved genocide" or "The genocide was justified."

I'm not sure where anyone in this thread has ever defended the concept of genocide as justified against anyone ever.

What I have seen discussed is whether the beginning of the war was solely the fault of the Saiyans or if the Tuffles also had a hand in fomenting hostilities. We are discussing how the war began, not how it ended. We know how it ended. It ended in genocide.

The point is, being a victim does not prevent someone from being a Jerkass. That's why we have the trope Jerkass Victim. Suffering unjustly and being an asshole are not mutually exclusive.

edited 9th Dec '15 3:14:33 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#30697: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:12:20 PM

Good thing we can see their parachutes.

They made it out safely.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30698: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:14:49 PM

Just because the Tuffles deserved it

unnoun, on this very page.

We know that Tuffels didn't even consider Sayians a thereat until they attacks and were content to live their lives in advanced society.

I mean seriously, Sayians didn't even had anything Tuffels could want, they were just a couple thousand of barbarians living in wastelands, why would Tuffels even bother oppressing them.

edited 9th Dec '15 3:18:46 PM by Shlugo_the_great

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30699: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:15:10 PM

To me it says something interesting that the thing that won them the war, the thing King Vegeta's strategy hinged on, was also the thing with Saiyans where they lost all control and higher thought.

Even potential conscientious objectors, even the Gines and the Tarbles and maybe even the Gokus (I mean, let's be honest, brain damage probably wasn't unusual among the Saiyans) would have had no choice but to wipe out the Tuffles entirely. Every man woman and child. The Saiyans would have had no control over themselves as Great Apes.

Even if some of the Saiyans didn't want to kill the Tuffles entirely, because of the method they used there was only one way for it to end.

That's one heck of a way to legitimize a genocide. None of Vegeta's subjects could really have objected even if they wanted to, because the blood was probably on their hands too, and because they probably didn't remember exactly how it went down.

That. That says some fascinating and disturbing things about King Vegeta as a leader.

Like seriously, you have little evidence and a lot of speculation, which I normally wouldn't even care, but then you go and start arguing that Tuffels were deserving of a fucking genocide. Like holy shit, were are talking about genocide here, you shouldn't throw around words like "deserved" or "justified" as lightly as you do. I find it rather disturbing truth be told.

I mean, you're the first person who said "deserved" and "justified" here, in this post so I honestly don't want to hear this coming from you.

You're the one who made it about what is and isn't "deserved".

unnoun, on this very page.

Only in response to you.

And, like, I said "just because the Tuffles deserved it doesn't mean the Saiyans didn't deserve it" in order to placate your insistence that the same race that produced Gine, Tarble and Goku deserved to be entirely wiped out. And if they didn't, it somehow lessens the supposed message.

Which, to be clear, I don't think is the case. I was speaking in hypothetical terms. Sorry I didn't make that more clear.

The Tuffles probably didn't deserve it either.

But if the Saiyans did deserve it, which you think is the point of the story, then them ever having been aggrieved by the Tuffles doesn't actually eliminate that. It just makes it more nuanced. More interesting. Less boring.

Nappa also wiped a whole city first thing after arriving on Earth so that says more of how repugnant Vegeta was even to someone like that than anything positive about Nappa.

And yet Vegeta's the one who gets to go to parties and gets his very own gravity chamber and gets wined and dined and taken out to fine restaurants that are either so good or that he eats at so often that he knows them by name and what they serve when he's trying to find out what a Whis he wants to feed wants.

He watches infomercials about bargain sales, and he takes his kid to the park.

You bring up "it's a good thing they died" and I can point to Vegeta, the worst of the lot, with an attractive wife, a lot of money and comforts and amenities, and a life he seems to actually like.

We know that Tuffels didn't even consider Sayians a thereat until they attacks and were content to live their lives in advanced society.

How do we know this?

I mean seriously, Sayians didn't even had anything Tuffels could want, they were just a couple thousand of barbarians living in wastelands, why would Tuffels even bother oppressing them.

...Do. Do you even watch the news?

I mean, for a scapegoat, for starters.

Cheap labor from the people that can benchpress mountains.

Entertainment. Gladiatorial combat.

edited 9th Dec '15 3:40:43 PM by unnoun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30700: Dec 9th 2015 at 3:20:59 PM

And, I mean, while Toei keeps throwing repugnant, monstrous Tuffles at us, Toriyama keeps giving us Saiyans who aren't complete monsters like Vegeta.

Toei goes, "Meet this Tuffle survivor, he's a f*cker, he wants to murder people and commit genocide on an entire population that had nothing to do with the crime committed against him, just to make sure those few remaining Saiyan children among them get snuffed."

And then Toriyama's like, "Meet Gine, she's cute and cuddly. Oh, and this is Vegeta's brother Tarble, he's a teddy bear."

So it's hard to really buy that either narrative is trying to push a message about how every single Saiyan is an irredeemable monster more devil than man and every Tuffle was an innocent victim.

Even Vegeta immediately gave up genocide the second Frieza was dead.

edited 9th Dec '15 3:22:03 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

Total posts: 130,800
Top