TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Dragon Ball

Go To

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30651: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:03:35 PM

[up][up][up]I mean, of course Raichi mocks it. Of course he thinks of it as theft. That's where Raichi is at that point in his life. He's a zealot and there's not a lot that Vegeta of all people would be able to do to change his mind.

...Especially since he was literally a ghost powered by hate. That's a big factor.

I mean, seriously, Sayians show up on planet Plant and less than two centuries later the native population is exterminated.

Why did it take them so long? I mean, they thought that Goku would be enough to Solo the Earth over the course of 20 years.

Like, nevermind that the war itself lasted like 10 years, supposedly it took 170 before the war even started.

And the Saiyans started off divided into tribes, and were more of a threat to each other until Vegeta united them. So like.

I don't think the Saiyans came to the planet intending to take it over. There doesn't seem to have been a lot of forethought or planning or intent involved.

Nope, Sayians the go into space and start wiping out civilizations for fun and profit.

True. I mean, after ridding themselves of the Tuffles they immediately enslave themselves to a new master.

And one of their preferred tactics is sending a baby that appears harmless at first only to strike at the unsuspecting inhabitants of the planet that never done anything to it. Hmm, I think I see a pattern here...

In fairness, part of that was also getting rid of weak infants.

According to Gine being an infiltrator baby is dangerous. So not all of them survive.

It's the Saiyan equivalent of the Spartan tradition of leaving the kid by a cliff.

Either you clear out a planet of weaklings that Frieza wants and all the adult Saiyans would be bored by because nobody there is worth fighting, or you get rid of a worthless baby. Win-win.

Of course, the only instances we've actually seen are Kakarot and Tarble, both of whom ended up liking the species they ended up with, marrying them, and trying to protect them. So. Like, that's an interesting statistic.

Like, I'm not saying the Saiyans wouldn't do what you're suggesting on moral grounds, what I'm saying is that what you're saying would require long-term and strategic planning that the Saiyans as a culture have never really been shown to possess.

The Saiyans seem more impulsive than that.

What enabled King Vegeta to wipe out the Tuffles was his charisma, his intelligence and, according to Raichi and Baby, his ambition.

If not for King Vegeta the war wouldn't have happened, nor would it have been won.

Now, how Vegeta started the war and why, is up for debate.

You could argue he wanted the Tuffles dead because he was an asshole. It's possible he wanted to help free his people from the chains of oppression.

...The answer is probably somewhere in the middle, to be honest.

...Heck, even I'm personally leaning towards the former.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:13:51 PM by unnoun

Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#30652: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:08:46 PM

How much does the popcorn cost, Psycho?

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#30653: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:12:38 PM

It's free of charge, mate.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30654: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:12:53 PM

But like, if not for a Saiyan like King Vegeta, the Saiyans would have been more of a threat to each other than to anyone else. Purely logistically, a divided force constantly at war with itself isn't great for taking over planets.

It's great if you want to control that divided group though. Divide and conquer. It probably worked out really well for the Tuffles for 170 years.

Like, I'm not even saying that the Saiyans did no wrong during that time.

But them wiping out the Tuffles wasn't inevitable, nor was it something they set out to do the moment they arrived.

They probably weren't biding their time because, again, biding their time isn't quite The Saiyan Way (TM). Not even because they can't be that sneaky but simply because they aren't good at being that patient.

And even if it was, 170 years is a heck of a long time to wait.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:15:46 PM by unnoun

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30655: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:15:40 PM

Why did it take them so long? I mean, they thought that Goku would be enough to Solo the Earth over the course of 20 years.

Like, nevermind that the war itself lasted like 10 years, supposedly it took 170 before the war even started.

For one they are a violent, warlike race, so no reason to assume they got along with themselves at first. It was King Vegeta who managed to unite them, before that they were probably at each other throats too much to be threat.

I don't think the Saiyans came to the planet intending to take it over. There doesn't seem to have been a lot of forethought or planning or intent involved.

I'm not saying that either. That sounds way beyond their planning ability. I'm saying that because of their violent nature and casual disregard for lives of others made an all out conflict inevitable as soon as they had means for it.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:16:55 PM by Shlugo_the_great

Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#30656: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:16:17 PM

Thanks, kind gentleman.

-takes popcorn and starts eating it-

BTW, I thought Hatchiyack was one of the more aesthetically pleasing villains in the whole franchise. Guess who I think is the most pleasing to look at?

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#30657: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:16:29 PM

*insert Michael Jackson popcorn GIF here*

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Anomalocaris20 from Sagittarius A* Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: Love blinded me (with science!)
#30658: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:20:40 PM

[up][up]Bio-Broly?

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!
Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#30659: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:21:55 PM

What reformed villain's my avvie?

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#30660: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:25:28 PM

Krillin? He really was kind of a little shit as a little kid.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:25:40 PM by Arha

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#30661: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:25:52 PM

Hehe

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#30662: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:26:20 PM

No, the other one.

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
Zelenal The Cat Knows Where It's At from Purrgatory Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
The Cat Knows Where It's At
#30663: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:28:22 PM

I don't think calling Marron a villain is fair. She's just a little kid, after all.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:29:32 PM by Zelenal

Let the joy of love give you an answer! Check out my book!
Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#30664: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:29:28 PM

The other human being in the picture.

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30665: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:29:46 PM

For one they are a violent, warlike race, so no reason to assume they got along with themselves at first. It was King Vegeta who managed to unite them, before that they were probably at each other throats too much to be threat.

Right. Which would have made them easy targets to exploit. Deliberately creating conflict between different groups has been a tactic of those in power for ages. As is using that conflict.

I'm not saying that either. That sounds way beyond their planning ability. I'm saying that because of their violent nature and casual disregard for lives of others made an all out conflict inevitable as soon as they had means for it.

I don't think a conflict was inevitable.

It's entirely possible that they would have wiped themselves out first. Frankly, I'd call it probable.

The thing is, though, with Tarble, Gine even Goku and even Bardock we know that some Saiyans are outliers. Like, Tarble isn't very strong and can't fight. We don't know how strong Gine is but she doesn't like fighting but she has in the past. Goku likes fighting and is strong but he doesn't like senseless loss of life. And Bardock likes fighting and killing but he also has a strong sense of family, community and camaraderie that is unusual for a Saiyan and a reason the lower class Saiyans admired him.

On the other end of the spectrum is our Vegeta, who is seemingly as evil as Saiyans get. Not only does he lack camaraderie, he's sometimes actively dismissive of and antagonistic towards his brothers in arms.

...It's actually interesting that supposedly his dad united the tribes because what with leaving Raditz dead, dismissing the idea of creating more hybrids, personally killing Nappa, and trying to kill Goku and Gohan, our Vegeta would have seemingly been perfectly content with becoming the last Saiyan period. Where King Vegeta was a uniting force, the prince has overall been a very destructive one. So that's a thing. Sometimes the apple can fall very far from the tree indeed.

...Hell, if anything Tarble seems like more of a uniter.

But anyway. Not all of the Saiyans would have been violent thugs, and even if they were, some would have been less violent and thuggish than others.

Some of those Saiyans would have probably been content not wiping out the Tuffles. For King Vegeta to unite all of them would require some form of motivation. For a lot of them, fighting would have been enough, but not all.

Like, any Tarbles in the Saiyans would have wanted to make friends with the Tuffles unless the Tuffles hurt them or their families. The Gines would want to make do unless they felt their way of life was being threatened, or possibly about to end. The Gokus would want to fight, but wouldn't want to kill without a reason, and would want to make friends to fight some more. The Bardocks would want to fight and, yes, kill, but they would have taken a somewhat philosophical approach to it, would want to know what was in it for King Vegeta, and would have thought first about the impact on their families and communities.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:39:54 PM by unnoun

IndirectActiveTransport plays capoeira from Chicago (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Every rose has its thorn
plays capoeira
#30666: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:31:47 PM

Vegeta may have said the Tuffles treated the saiyans like slaves, but Kaio, King Kai, whatever, said that King Vegeta was the first saiyan intelligent enough to realize they were being exploited, the first one with intelligence comparable to a Tuffle's, and that's when the rebellion against them happened.

Good God, someone got Planet of the Apes in my Journey to the West!

edited 9th Dec '15 2:32:45 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

Buldogue's lawyer
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#30667: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:33:07 PM

This topic kind of reminds me of District Nine.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30668: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:33:49 PM

[up][up] They blew it up!

Damn them! Damn them all to HFIL!

...Anyway, yeah, that sounds familiar.

So yeah, there's that.

...Again, I can imagine a Saiyan/Tuffle alliance conquering the universe.

The Tuffles get a universe, the Saiyans get to punch things.

Everybody's happy.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:35:50 PM by unnoun

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30669: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:35:49 PM

Tobias: Do you assume that this guy is representative of all Tuffles? Just because one of them is an asshole doesn't mean they all were.

True, but there's narrative focus to consider. If we were meant to consider the Tuffles innocent victims, there would be at least one Tuffle character who isn't a horrible monster.

As an audience, we're not meant to side with Vegeta, like, ever. He's an asshole. But we're also not meant to side with Raichi, because he's just as bad as Vegeta. The conflict between the Saiyans and the Tuffles is represented by one genocidal dipshit and another genocidal dipshit, implying that neither side had clean hands.

In reality, a people cannot be summarized by a single person, but fiction is not reality. Everything that happens within a Work is shaped by an All-Powerful and All-Knowing God. Everything that appears onscreen is deliberately crafted to incite a response in the audience. As such, the complete absence of even a single sympathetic Tuffle casts them in the same light as the Saiyans.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:37:09 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#30670: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:37:01 PM

I don't see any other humans in your avatar. One human male, one little girl, one robot.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30671: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:37:31 PM

[up][up] Also that, yeah.

Like, I'm sure that some of the Tuffles were probably decent people, but that Tuffle society as a whole exploited the Saiyans every chance it got.

Like, the Saiyans would be perfect for a gladiatorial arena.

They can lift a lot so making them workers would make sense.

[up] I think it's "artificial human" or something, actually.

edited 9th Dec '15 2:38:48 PM by unnoun

Piando 18's Glomp OF DOOM Since: Jun, 2015
18's Glomp OF DOOM
#30672: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:37:55 PM

The Human-cyborg with the handbag.

I love you, Krillin!! -struggling to breathe- I love you as well, honey..
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#30673: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:38:08 PM

coughcoughdistrict9cough

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#30674: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:40:53 PM

Android 8?

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30675: Dec 9th 2015 at 2:41:32 PM

Want to talk narrative focus? How about that the recount of the war wasn't some heroic tale brave sayians overthrowing their oppressors, but a first in a long line of atrocities that made their annihilation a good thing.

That was the entire point of the story "Sayians were assholes, they did horrible things, then they were wiped out, good riddance."


Total posts: 130,800
Top