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Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30626: Dec 9th 2015 at 12:58:16 PM

Tuffles pretty much ignored the Sayians until the war because of their small numbers, not even cared that Sayians build their settlements right next to their cities. That was clearly a mistake.

Sayians weren't some poor, oppressed immigrants, they were an invasive species and it was Tuffles mistake to not treat them like that.

BlackYakuzu94 CHADhan Player. from Easy Coast/NY Since: May, 2013 Relationship Status: Longing for my OTP
CHADhan Player.
#30627: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:00:07 PM

What do you we even know about the Tuffles aside from what we know from the villains :V

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30628: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:02:17 PM

What King Kai told us?

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30629: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:06:33 PM

[up]You mean Planet Vegeta was destroyed by a meteor King Kai?

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30630: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:09:09 PM

It's weird how people get mad at fans for repeating statements made by the characters?

Like, Vegeta thinks the war happened because the Tuffles were dicks, Raichi thinks it was because the Saiyans were dicks. Neither of which is mutually exclusive, mind.

I think Vegeta even mentioned the Saiyans being treated like slaves.

Now, yes we know that the Saiyans were dicks after the war.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30631: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:09:50 PM

[up][up]He's like the only source on Tuffles outside of non-canon OAVs and GT. If we disregard his words we can just as well assume that Tuffles were wiped by some mutated strand of common cold brought by Sayains and they just made up the story about war because it sounds better.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:11:10 PM by Shlugo_the_great

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30632: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:10:10 PM

[up][up]

When did he say they were treated like slaves? I don't recall that.

Was it in Plan to destroy the Super Saiyans?

edited 9th Dec '15 1:10:20 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30633: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:11:50 PM

Vegeta says the Tuffles were assholes. Raichi says the Saiyans were assholes. Vegeta, himself, is a genocidal murderer so his opinion should probably be taken with a grain of salt. Raichi is also a genocidal murderer so his opinion should probably also be taken with a grain of salt.

Vegeta and Raichi are two sides of the same coin. No reason to assume their species doesn't follow suit.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:12:05 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30634: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:14:44 PM

The only thing Toriyama has said about the Tuffles is they were on Planet Plant before the Saiyans and they invented Scouters.

They aren't actually mentioned in the manga.

Aside from that, we have King Kai in filler, where he also says the planet got destroyed by a meteor, and we have Plan to Eradicate the Super Saiyans, and we have the Baby arc in GT.

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30635: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:16:52 PM

Raichi went mad after witnessing his species getting wiped out. He's hardly a good measure for his species as a whole, which by the only unbiased account was pretty chill.

Vegeta was the biggest asshole among sayians, yes but they were still a race of warmongering monsters who preformed genocide for fun and profit. Why is it so hard to accept that they done it with Tuffels as well?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30636: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:19:41 PM

Because the only times we ever hear of the Tuffles is when they're building murder robots.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:19:49 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30637: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:19:43 PM

For starters, Vegeta doesn't normally bother to justify Saiyan behavior. Because he doesn't care. At all. He feels no actual regret or remorse about what they've done.

With Raichi, Vegeta's actually seemingly a little mad about the accusations.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30638: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:20:55 PM

[up][up][up]Cause there's two sides to every story, and we can't judge everything by what we think of the people telling those sides.

Plus Grey-and-Grey Morality is always a thing. I don't think people would believe that one side is ever innocent in such a conflict, even if it was true.

Edit: So I was Murasaki'ed on this one, but [up][up] and [up] basically gave the reason.

Until Toriyama cares enough to elaborate, we'l never really know the truth.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:22:20 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30639: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:21:02 PM

It's never "Tuffle survivor who wants to find a new home" or "Tuffle survivor who helps refugees." It's always "Tuffle survivor who wants to bathe in Saiyan blood."

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30640: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:23:06 PM

In a universe with Sayians and PTO a murder robot sounds like a good investment.

Plus Grey and Grey Morality is always a thing. I don't think people would believe that one side is ever innocent in such a conflict, even if it was true.

No it's not. That's basically a revisionism to twist stuff to preconceptions like "all sides of a conflict are always morally equivalent". It's not even always true in real world, much less in fiction.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:26:36 PM by Shlugo_the_great

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30641: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:23:17 PM

[up][up]

Not just Saiyan blood.

Wanting to murder the Saiyans is somewhat justified. But they never have a problem murdering as many humans are in the way as possible as well.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:23:29 PM by HandsomeRob

One Strip! One Strip!
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#30642: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:23:24 PM

Pass the popcorn, this is gonna be fun...

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30643: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:23:51 PM

~Takes the popcorn~

Not while I'm around.tongue

One Strip! One Strip!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30644: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:27:18 PM

Not just Saiyan blood.

Wanting to murder the Saiyans is somewhat justified. But they never have a problem murdering as many humans are in the way as possible as well.

That's true.

Point is, it's hard to see the Tuffles as entirely innocent victims when they are every bit as eager for genocide as the Saiyans were. The few times we meet Tuffles, they are bloodthirsty monsters not unlike the Saiyans we've known.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:27:58 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30645: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:29:41 PM

Being the last survivor of species wide genocide would seem like a thing that could drive you insane. It's really unfair to point as Raichi and say that how Tuffels behave back in the day. No, that's how a madman who bathed in despair and hate for decades behaves.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30646: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:35:01 PM

People react to tragedy in different ways. The kind of people who would be inclined to commit further genocide in response to genocide probably weren't that great to begin with.

Demanding blood for blood is not the action of a benign person.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:36:04 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30647: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:38:59 PM

I mean, the fact that Vegeta bothers trying to justify himself is out of character in a way that suggests that whatever happened it wasn't the norm. Vegeta normally doesn't care about what others think about him or the Saiyans.

Or rather, he does, but in the sense that he wants fear and respect and awe. He doesn't give a damn about morality, though.

Like, frankly I think saying that they were enslaved by a race so much physically weaker than them would be a little embarrassing for Vegeta to admit to? Like, I think Vegeta probably thinks it's true because it fundamentally isn't something Vegeta would make up.

Vegeta is proud of being a murderous space pirate.

...I looked up the scene and Vegeta's not "angry" per se. Sorta indignant though. He smirks a little and his expression doesn't quite match the line? He starts off with a frown while Raichi's talking though.

Like, it doesn't seem like he's making it up, because Vegeta isn't really the type to do that either. Again, Vegeta doesn't normally need justification for his actions.

...I don't know enough about Japanese or Japanese acting to really judge Vegeta's delivery though.

Either way our Vegeta wasn't actually there at the time. All he knows would be things he learned second-hand. Probably some propaganda in history books.

...I mean, Raichi's lines about trying to "help" the poor Saiyans reminds me of some stuff with the White Man's Burden.

So. Like, I can see the Tuffles looking down on the Saiyans like that.

The kind of people who would be inclined to commit further genocide in response to genocide probably weren't that great to begin with.

Not even just genocide, really. In all versions of the OVA Raichi's gas is destroying the Earth and all the Earthlings.

Like, yeah, there's like. Two Saiyans there. And two half-Saiyans. Three half-Saiyans if you count the one from the future.

Killing billions of other people just to get five guys seems a bit excessive?

I mean, nevermind that one of those five is a baby.

I could see wanting to kill Vegeta. His dad is the one responsible, he still thinks of himself as a prince, and he's a bit of a prick and most people that know him for five minutes would want him dead. That makes perfect sense.

edited 9th Dec '15 1:52:23 PM by unnoun

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30648: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:52:44 PM

And then Raichi mocks Vegeta excuses and comparing it to the reasoning of a thief.

I mean, seriously, Sayians show up on planet Plant and less than two centuries later the native population is exterminated. Was it just some one-off thing to overthrow horrible oppressors? Nope, Sayians the go into space and start wiping out civilizations for fun and profit. And one of their preferred tactics is sending a baby that appears harmless at first only to strike at the unsuspecting inhabitants of the planet that never done anything to it. Hmm, I think I see a pattern here...

Arha Since: Jan, 2010
#30649: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:55:43 PM

Tobias: Do you assume that this guy is representative of all Tuffles? Just because one of them is an asshole doesn't mean they all were.

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#30650: Dec 9th 2015 at 1:58:22 PM

POPCORN! GET YER POPCORN HERE! CAN'T WATCH PEOPLE HAVE AN ARGUMENT ABOUT GENOCIDE, SAIYANS, AND TUFFLES WITHOUT POPCORN!

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?

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