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Majinangelo Since: Oct, 2015
#30551: Dec 7th 2015 at 11:54:51 PM

It doesn't really make much sense for Gohan to rely on his super saiyan transformation to use his full power since to use his full strength against Buu he had to act as if he was trying to transform. If anything he shouldn't even know if he could transform anymore because his potential was revealed and be surprised his power manifests by transforming all over again.

The way he's portrayed is convenient for Freeza to have his revenge against the original form of super saiyan but nothing about it makes any sense. It doesn't bother me that much since it seems Gohan won't play a major role in Dragon Ball Super and even if he did it makes for a more interesting arc for him to deal with the consequences of his lack of training. But it was indeed unnecessary to nerf him so much.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30552: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:10:46 AM

My point is that he wasn't nerfed nearly as much as some of you are making it out to be.

potential unlocked Gohan = theoretical peak training SS 3 Gohan

SS 1 Resurrection 'F' Gohan = potential unlocked Gohan

LOLypop1224 ...what am I even DOING here? Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
...what am I even DOING here?
#30553: Dec 8th 2015 at 1:37:35 AM

...I go away for a few days, and when I come back, we're talking about Gohan.

So, nothing's changed.

I'm still trying to get wraps around how Gohan's power is working now. It's implying he's still stronger than Piccolo in base, and was about equal to Tagoma before the Ginyu body-switch. But he can still go Super Saiyan on top of that?

It's like he lost Ultimate, but his base form got a boost, and he can still go Super Saiyan to make up for it. But it's more draining.

...I think?

The *Legendary* Super Saiyan is motivated by a crying infant! He is a literal giant f***ing baby!
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30554: Dec 8th 2015 at 1:40:02 AM

Ultimate is not, nor has it ever been, a transformation. Ultimate is Gohan's base form, powered up to equal his maximum Super Saiyan 3 potential.

Majinangelo Since: Oct, 2015
#30555: Dec 8th 2015 at 1:41:34 AM

Maybe that's what we're supposed to understand and it would make sense for Gohan to realise he has a hard time tapping into his power while he fights against Ginyu. But obviously it wasn't clear enough. And it doesn't explain why Gohan relies on his Super Saiyan transformation since we're also supposed to believe it's been a long time since he last transformed.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#30556: Dec 8th 2015 at 4:06:38 AM

You know, if seeing Piccolo take the bullet for him again doesn't motivate Gohan to start training again it means that Toriyama really had given up on him completely. This episode could serve a purpose if it was to motivate Gohan to get his ass back into gear, but if not then eh.

We don't know who is writing these earlier Super episodes. Toriyama's involvement is kind of vague and we just know he's doing character designs and plot outlines for Universe 6.

Though the recent Super episodes have diverged quite a bit so he might have come up with those ideas. But if this didn't come from him, I don't see any of this being relevant to how Universe 6 will be written.

edit: Actually we do know the writers for individual episodes, but not who is making the overall plans if you know what I mean. We don't know what's going on behind the scenes.

It wasn't that bad at all and you don't know what Tagoma's species is like, so you can't really claim that him getting stronger than Piccolo is improbable.

Hah, that's a load of shit. Piccolo was a one-of-a-kind prodigy from a race with unusually high battle powers, whose original power surpassed even Freeza and Super Saiyans, and he trained to go even further beyond that. That kind of thing must be very rare in the universe.

Saying it's okay for Tagoma to surpass that because none of it is explained is ridiculous. That is exactly the problem - Piccolo is very unique in the universe and we actually saw how he got so strong. It was built up, it was explained. Having some alien come out of nowhere, be compared to someone over a thousand times weaker than Piccolo and then surpass him in four months without explanation is incredibly improbable. There's no build-up or justification for it.

edited 8th Dec '15 4:07:43 AM by Saiga

Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30557: Dec 8th 2015 at 4:34:51 AM

Good point about the writing. Since the degree of Toriyama involvement is vague, it's hard to say who's decision it is.

Also yeah Tagoma being stronger that Piccolo is silly. That kind of power is very unusual. Ginyu force were already elite mutants from all corners of Freeza empire and they amounted to less than a thousand of that power. Heck, Beerus a god who lived for tents of millions of years was shocked that a mortal stronger than Freeza showed up. Tagoma power up reeks of contrivance and make all the efforts Z warriors put in to get stronger silly.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#30558: Dec 8th 2015 at 5:28:17 AM

Just watched the episode, it was pretty bad. It certainly had its good moments but the majority of it was very poorly done. Tagoma just wasn't interesting at all with cackling and "omg im so strong you guys" because Dragon Ball has had no shortage of overconfident, annoying villains.

Gotenks' moment was so-so. I take it he defused so quickly because Goten and Trunks fused before arriving on the battlefield (since they entered as Gotenks) which would normally be a good idea except they clearly fused way too soon... and that's hilarious. It's also a pretty nice subversion to the "Gotenks fights for a while but defuses at a critical moment" to just have him defuse straight off the bat that way. The only problem is that Gotenks hasn't been used well at all before that, so this just feels like a waste. If it weren't for that, this would have been hilarious and perfect.

They had Freeza react to Goten and Trunks like many people wanted. That's great! I'm just let down they didn't do much with it though. I was hoping Freeza would actually confuse Goten and Trunks for Goku and Future Trunks, like wow Pilaf's gang did in BoG. That would be pretty funny and a nice callback. He seemed to figure things out too quickly here to make much of his reaction.

The fact that they brought Ginyu back is also mixed. I love Ginyu, and he's more entertaining than what they did with Tagoma, but at the same time "discard the new characters, rehash the old" was already in effect for pretty much every other aspect of the original movie. We didn't need to toss out another new character to bring back one of the oldies.

All the throwbacks to the Saiyan and Freeza arcs make me feel like they're just relying on reliving the older material to pander to fans right now. Which was always what RF was about, but I don't like seeing it even more blatant. Especially with how the new takes on old scenes are just plainly inferior due to censorship and poor writing. Rehashing Piccolo's Saiyan arc death seemed to be really popular, but I couldn't feel anything at all. Just loosely repeating the events isn't a free ticket to the emotional gravitas the original scene had.

I do like that Freeza really isn't keeping his composure well here. He's always been bugfuck insane with a very weak facade masking it.

"Dragon Ball Super: Making bad movies, worse"

edited 8th Dec '15 5:28:39 AM by Saiga

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#30559: Dec 8th 2015 at 5:47:51 AM

Eh, I disagree on the movie being bad. Other than the ending, it was at worst mediocre. But that doesn't change the fact that I still prefer the movie version.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30560: Dec 8th 2015 at 5:59:35 AM

Goten and Trunks went to the battlefield when they felt Tagoma power up. How did half an hour pass to when they arrived is a mystery to me. Especially since Gotenks can circle the world many times before running out of time. Admittedly Dragon Ball was never big on keep a consistent passage of time during battles.

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#30562: Dec 8th 2015 at 7:10:01 AM

How long was it in real time? Assuming Goten and Trunks fused the second the camera switched off of them.

BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#30563: Dec 8th 2015 at 7:48:23 AM

Admittedly, I mostly just like Tagoma for the dual-eye scouter he had; mentioned by Toriyama that they exist before, but never actually seen until now... I'm a sucker for scouters. They're just damn cool to me.

Oooother than that, I'm not a fan of the guy.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30564: Dec 8th 2015 at 8:16:52 AM

Meh I don't care.

I don't know who came up with what ideas, but this ain't the first time that someone was suddenly ridiculously powerful when it shouldn't be possible.

Let's all remember the evil scientists who built Androids more powerful than the worst tyrant in the universe in a cave with a box of scraps. And by fucking accident too.

It makes no sense for Tagoma to be so strong unless he's a mutant with incredible potential himself, but he is, so fuck it. Lets see how it goes.

It's overkill to weaken Gohan that much, but they did, so again, fuck it! Let's see how it goes.

Just to be clear though, if anyone needs some Torches and Pitchforks for when we riot, I've got tons of the former, and a plethora of the latter as always.

One Strip! One Strip!
Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#30565: Dec 8th 2015 at 8:37:13 AM

I'm still trying to get wraps around how Gohan's power is working now. It's implying he's still stronger than Piccolo in base, and was about equal to Tagoma before the Ginyu body-switch.

Was Tagoma doing better when Ginyu took over? If he was, that doesn't make sense, he had control over Tagoma's body for all of five minutes before he started fighting.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30566: Dec 8th 2015 at 8:55:13 AM

I guess Tagoma's body is just easier to use than Goku's.

One Strip! One Strip!
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#30567: Dec 8th 2015 at 9:08:41 AM

Tagoma's body's power isn't based on techniques Ginyu doesn't know like the Kaioken.

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#30568: Dec 8th 2015 at 9:11:32 AM

I think it's the purple skin.

I think Ginyu liked that body a little too much. He wasn't nearly as touchy-feely with Goku's body.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
Shlugo_the_great King of Burgers from Far Far Away (On A Trope Odyssey) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
King of Burgers
#30569: Dec 8th 2015 at 10:32:13 AM

[up][up]Not being able to use Kaioken was only a small part of Ginyu problems with Goku body. He was only able to muster up a measly 23 000 BP from it, a mere 1/4 of Goku power without Kaioken.

HandsomeRob Leader of the Holey Brotherhood from The land of broken records Since: Jan, 2015
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
#30570: Dec 8th 2015 at 10:58:10 AM

[up][up]

After being a Frog for so many years, I can't blame him really.

[up]

I guess all the training Goku did over the years and stuff just made his body more complicated to use or something.

One Strip! One Strip!
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#30571: Dec 8th 2015 at 11:55:29 AM

Ginyu was getting steadily better at controlling Goku's body as the fight went on, and his powerlevel was increasing. Ultimately, though, he would've still been superboned against Vegeta, who by that point was about three times as strong as Goku then, IINM.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#30572: Dec 8th 2015 at 12:00:25 PM

Accurate.

Goku was at 90k. Krillin was steadily rising towards 75k while Gohan was steadily rising towards 200k, but it's unknown where exactly they were on their climb at that point. Gohan probably got a zenkai from Recoome in addition to his released potential, so he was probably higher than Krillin at the time.

Vegeta, on the other hand, was at 250k as a result of the zenkai he got from Recoome. He could have demolished Ginyu-Goku even at his full non-Kaioken strength.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#30573: Dec 8th 2015 at 3:28:43 PM

Saiga pretty much summed up what I was trying to say yesterday about how I felt about the new episode.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
BaffleBlend Hey there! Having fun? from Somewhere Since: Dec, 2012 Relationship Status: LET'S HAVE A ZILLION BABIES
Hey there! Having fun?
#30574: Dec 8th 2015 at 3:48:13 PM

You know, I just realized; in the Garlic Jr. saga, the heroes destroyed a planet and, presumably, wiped out an entire race.

Yyyikes.

"It's liberating, realizing you never need to be competent." — Ultimatepheer
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#30575: Dec 8th 2015 at 3:53:04 PM

It's okay.

They were Always Chaotic Evil, and any Paladin worth his salt knows that you kill those as a matter of principle.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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