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PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29826: Nov 28th 2015 at 11:39:54 PM

I don't think that's right.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29828: Nov 28th 2015 at 11:45:08 PM

Super Saiyan 3 draining fusion time AND creating a delay before fusing again (both parts).

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#29829: Nov 28th 2015 at 11:51:08 PM

Yeah, I think getting rid of the Potara would have been for the better, overall.

Like, from an out-of-universe perspective, it's kind of an Ass Pull, and from an in-universe perspective, it makes no sense that that would be a common and mundane thing to be done among the kais.

edited 28th Nov '15 11:52:25 PM by BaconManiac5000

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29830: Nov 28th 2015 at 11:54:51 PM

I'm split on keeping to Potara because it would clean the story up a bit, but I also have this idea of Kibitoshin showing up to help out against Kid Buu.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#29831: Nov 28th 2015 at 11:56:22 PM

He wanted to do that, but Elder Kai informed him that he was way too weak to make a difference.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29832: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:00:06 AM

Not seeing a Potara Fusion involving someone who is SS 1 tier being weaker than SS 2 tier.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#29833: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:04:49 AM

.....that's a sentence fragment that makes no sense.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29834: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:08:01 AM

Potara fusion is REALLY powerful. Supreme Kai is around the level of strong Super Saiyan 1's. Vegeta, who can only get to Super Saiyan 2, helped out against Kid Buu. A Potara Fusion involving Supreme Kai should at least be around Vegeta's Super Saiyan 2.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#29835: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:11:16 AM

He helped out mostly by stalling and he was stalling by getting the shit kicked out of him.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29836: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:11:56 AM

The time limit is first mentioned when they're training in the RoSaT:

Chapter: 489 (DBZ 295), P2.6-9, P3.3
Context: after Goten and Trunks reach Super Saiyan 3 as Gotenks for the first time
Trunks: “…But its weak point is time…See…We’re only able to become it for about 5 minutes…Then even our Fusion comes undone and we turn back into two people…”
Goten: “That’s no problem. We’ll become that way right off the bat! Even with just 5 minutes, we’ll definitely be able to take care of [Boo]!”

And it's not directly stated Super Saiyan 3 causes the one hour wait, however the one hour time limit is only brought up while Gotenks is a Super Saiyan 3 and Goten/Trunks were able to fuse immediately after their time limits ran out both times they failed to fuse.

And in other parts of the franchise non-Super Saiyan 3 fusions have been able to fuse again immediately after the split.

edit: Old Kaioshin outright says Kibitoshin is useless, and he doesn't even try to help out against even Pure Boo. So I would assume he's weak because his fusion wasn't as successful as Goku/Vegeta. It's definitely not an exact formula or anything.

edited 29th Nov '15 12:13:14 AM by Saiga

Nihlus1 Since: Jul, 2015
#29837: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:12:46 AM

He actually puts up a decent fight in the anime (the difference between SS/SS-2/SS-3 seems quite small there), but yeah in the manga he only survives more than three seconds because Buu likes beating the shit out of Vegeta. As would anyone.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29838: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:16:04 AM

[up][up]I'm pretty sure the failed fusions don't count as real fusions and I think Piccolo is the one who told them to run until they could fuse again. He wouldn't have known about it if it was a Super Saiyan 3-only thing.

[up][up][up]The more people to get the crap beaten out of them to stall, the better.

edited 29th Nov '15 12:17:34 AM by PushoverMediaCritic

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29839: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:17:17 AM

They mention the 1 hour wait right in front of Piccolo, actually. That's how it comes up - Super Boo is knocked into the earth by the Ultra Boo-Boo Volleybal, and Gotenks complains about how long he's taking because if he loses the form it will be an hour before he can fuse again.

edited 29th Nov '15 12:18:11 AM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29840: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:18:06 AM

Huh.

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#29841: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:25:58 AM

Supreme Kai wasn't really nearly as strong as SSJ from what I saw.

All I know is that Piccolo didn't want to fight him (which could have been either him messing with his head or Piccolo not wanting to punch his boss in the face) and that he was stronger than final form Freeza, which isn't saying much by the Buu Saga.

And what I've seen of his combat capabilities, well, he bit it quite a lot harder than Gohan, who was previously established as weaker than SSJ Vegeta.

So.....

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29842: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:28:39 AM

He's outright said to be stronger than Piccolo. Both in the manga and in guidebooks.

But it's also clear that he's not close to any of the Boo arc Super Saiyans. Maybe the kids.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29843: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:29:35 AM

He restrained SS 2 Gohan with telekinesis pretty easily and took one more hit from Madjinn Buu than SS 2 Gohan did. I'd say he's high SS 1/low SS 2.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#29844: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:31:36 AM

That doesn't make any sense. The Super Saiyan forms are just multipliers of the base state so you can't be "low/mid/high" any SS level.

Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
#29845: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:33:52 AM

While that's true, the Super Saiyans at any given time tend to be close to one another.

ie in the Android arc, all the Super Saiyans are treated in the same ballpark

at the Cell Games, you've got Vegeta and Trunks as the lower level, Goku in the middle and Gohan as the high

In the Boo arc, once again they're all at a similar level with Goten and Trunks at the bottom, Gohan in the middle (or tied with Goten/Trunks depending on the source), and Goku/Vegeta above that.

Calling them tiers is less about the forms and more about the users of those forms in a specific period of time. It's quite simple.

Calling East Kaioshin low SS1 level would mean he's on the lower end compared to the Super Saiyan characters of that period.

[down] Okay disregard what I just said that's batshit crazy

edited 29th Nov '15 12:35:37 AM by Saiga

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#29846: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:34:29 AM

I'm going off the common assumption that all Super Saiyan 2s are stronger than all Super Saiyan 1s and all Super Saiyan 3s are stronger than all Super Saiyan 2s. Holds true so far.

VeryMelon Since: Jul, 2011 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#29847: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:36:23 AM

[up][up]That makes sense.

edited 29th Nov '15 12:39:49 AM by VeryMelon

BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#29848: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:36:53 AM

He restrained SSJ 2 Gohan with telekinesis, yes.

But A) Gohan didn't know what was going on and didn't have time to counter it, B) it was only for less than a second, and C) he later admitted that it took all of his effort to restrain Gohan for less than a second.

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else
Saiga Since: Feb, 2011 Relationship Status: Getting away with murder
BaconManiac5000 Since: Nov, 2013 Relationship Status: Baby don't hurt me!
#29850: Nov 29th 2015 at 12:38:53 AM

Hehe

what do you mean I didn't win, I ate more wet t-shirts than anyone else

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