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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#3476: Jul 10th 2023 at 12:56:07 PM

For example, as far as I'm aware, modding RA 2's AI is mostly limited to altering the size and composition of the "task forces" it builds for offense and defense.

You can also alter what it targets and does. You can make a task force that simply defends something like a refinery or war factory or one that simply chases after the first thing it can fight upon being built.

Like for example I changed use of fighter aircraft to where they spend most of the time trying to bomb vehicles when in the vanilla game it only does that with its initial pair of Harriers and afterwards only tries to bomb your refineries.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#3477: Jul 12th 2023 at 6:11:07 AM

Odd, I had no issues with having a rich economy in Red Alert 3, mostly due to me obsessively going after ore mines as soon as they become available. Repairs was also a cinch; they were free and automatic.

I noticed there were seldom any “free” mines that weren’t already plastered with an enemy base or outpost. Similarly, oil derricks provided little additional cash individually. Better than nothing but not dependable unless you can snag at least two or three or six.

Which ultimately boiled down to if I had enough mines and derricks to where I wasn’t constantly starved for money, I’m controlling like 3/4ths of the map already and basically already won. Especially factoring in the actions of the co-commander who is as much a drain on your supplies as he is a beneficiary. If not a net drain on you because I’ve noticed the “shared resources” thing really only benefits him the most. You have to go out and snag it yourself if you want to do anything at all.

Which stood in stark contrast to Red Alert 2 and Generals which didn’t require obsessive map control just to be functional.

There wasn’t even this much in Tiberium Wars and that game had plenty of flaws in its economy.

EDIT:

And repairs were problematic to me because A) the terrible pathfinding especially of units with large footprints like Assault Destroyers and Dreadnoughts made it very difficult to get close to the tiny repair radius of stuff equipped with repair drones.

And since Soviet production stuff has no ability to repair at all it means you gotta go out of your way to build extra cranes in extra places to cover land, air and sea units. Or try to cover everything which doesn’t always work or work well.

Edited by MajorTom on Jul 12th 2023 at 6:15:11 AM

EruditeEsotericist Since: May, 2015
#3478: Jul 12th 2023 at 7:49:43 AM

Okay the first Scrin mission in Combined Arms is such bullshit! You’re facing Nod, and the objective is to take control of all 6 blue tiberium fields. “Take control” is defined as “You have an active harvester and refinery working the field, Nod has been expelled”. All 6 fields are decently well defended with turrets, lasers, SAM sites, infantry and vehicles. All the fields have 4 stealth tanks in them, and the ones at the back of the map have Obelisks of Light and cyborgs. There’s also a helibase.

What’s problematic about it is you can’t build units!You get reinforcements (a small collection of units) when you clear a field, and when you harvest an ever increasing amount of tiberium, that starts at about 30,000 and goes up from there. Because you only have a build radius around the con yard, you have to move that from field to field to create a new refinery or replace destroyed ones, and you have to make a new refinery each time you lose a harvester, since no unit producing buildings. And you will lose them, often, especially as you can’t make static defences (a support power gives you one every 5 minutes, but only for 30 seconds).

And Nod get free reinforcements from off-map so you can’t just smash the production buildings. Oh, and when you do get all the fields? You need to Hold the Line for 4 minutes. One of the most frustrating missions I’ve ever played, and that’s only on Easy…Lord knows how tough it is on hard.

RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3479: Jul 12th 2023 at 11:43:16 AM

[up][up]Looking back, I'd have to agree that the two starting nodes for each base probably isn't enough for a decent budget on their own, necessitating a lot of ore node conquests. In the campaign, most of them aren't too heavily guarded, so it takes a small demolition team to take what should be yours. It's dealing with that or having to wait for long harvester trips in previous games (sans Generals where supply areas would just deplete quickly altogether). In Red Alert 3, there's no upgrades to purchase, only invested via the internal points you get over time a la Generals, so that's one less category to spend money on (contrast with Tiberium Wars, where both upgrades and abilities cost a pretty penny). And I'd certainly take derpy navigation to the repair nodes than manually using service depots and paying for them any day.

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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#3480: Jul 12th 2023 at 11:58:30 AM

Service depots in Red Alert 2 were awesome though. You could have a mixed force of damaged and undamaged vehicles, click the service depot and only the damaged vehicles would go to it and all of them would be repaired in sequence. You could even set a rally point on the depot to elsewhere to remove potential clogging and clustering.

Repairing having a cost is take it or leave it to me. But I’d rather have the old service depot or a buildable structure that caused your vehicles to auto repair over time than silly repair drones.

If I were to use the repair drones option, I’d triple the radius around each structure that can do it (quad or quintuple with naval yards owing to ships being bigger) and it would generate as many repair drones as there are damaged vehicles inside the radius.

Of course when it comes to vehicles being repaired having a cost, I’d make it consistent across the game. Vehicles and structures alike would either cost nothing to repair or all cost money to repair.

From a gameplay perspective, free repairs is more consistent.

RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3481: Jul 12th 2023 at 12:17:04 PM

Hell, I didn't even know Service Depots could queue repairs that way; I always thought it was a one-at-a-time nuisance, like production in the pre-Tiberian Sun era. Of course, if we were to have the best of both worlds, we'd probably have a similar sequence with the repair drones, where vehicles would enter the zone at a maximum of three, in which case the fixed vehicles would automatically leave the zone to make room for the next one.

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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#3482: Jul 12th 2023 at 1:06:41 PM

The one at a time nature was only for Tiberian Dawn. Red Alert could queue up to five ground vehicles on land based depots (aircraft were one at a time though), naval yards and sub pens could do pretty much as many as would physically fit around it but only do one ship at a time.

Tiberian Sun implemented a proto-RA 2 style that would move through the damaged vehicles in sequence but couldn’t set a rally point for it. At least I think that’s how it was.

Generals would do vehicles one at a time (or seemingly limitless amounts of infantry all at once) for their stuff but the repaired vehicle would move out of the way for the next one in sequence. Helicopters such as Helixes, Comanches and Chinooks would and and repair in sequence air airfields. Airfield planes like Raptors would automatically repair when they reached their docking station. All four slots on that were independent of each other.

But Generals had means of repairing stuff en masse such as Battle Drones, Emergency Repair, Tech Repair Bays, Propaganda Towers/Speaker Towers and the GLA Junk Repair Upgrade. And vehicles gained auto repair on veterancy level 2 (Elite) rather than 3 (Heroic). And auto repair abilities stacked so a Heroic Crusader Tank under the effects of a Battle Drone, Speaker Tower, and Repair Bay coupled with its own TWO levels of self repair from veterancy regenerated from its last few hit points about to die to full in like 20 seconds or less.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#3483: Jul 12th 2023 at 1:15:58 PM

The one at a time nature was only for Tiberian Dawn. Red Alert could queue up to five ground vehicles on land based depots (aircraft were one at a time though), naval yards and sub pens could do pretty much as many as would physically fit around it but only do one ship at a time.

Tiberian Sun implemented a proto-RA 2 style that would move through the damaged vehicles in sequence but couldn’t set a rally point for it. At least I think that’s how it was.

Generals would do vehicles one at a time at factories (or seemingly limitless amounts of infantry all at once at a barracks) for their stuff but the repaired vehicle would move out of the way for the next one in sequence. Helicopters such as Helixes, Comanches and Chinooks would go to and repair in sequence at airfields. Airfield planes like Raptors would automatically repair when they reached their docking station. All four slots on that were independent of each other.

But Generals had means of repairing stuff en masse such as Battle Drones, Emergency Repair, Tech Repair Bays, Propaganda Towers/Speaker Towers and the GLA Junk Repair Upgrade. And vehicles gained auto repair on veterancy level 2 (Elite) rather than 3 (Heroic). And auto repair abilities stacked so a Heroic Crusader Tank under the effects of a Battle Drone, Speaker Tower, and Repair Bay coupled with its own TWO levels of self repair from veterancy regenerated from its last few hit points about to die to full in like 20 seconds or less.

Edited by MajorTom on Jul 12th 2023 at 1:31:08 AM

amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#3484: Jul 13th 2023 at 12:03:24 AM

I personally have a greater bone to pick with every single entry except Generals making infantry healing either tech structure dependent or faction-restricted.

Which stood in stark contrast to Red Alert 2 and Generals which didn’t require obsessive map control just to be functional.

Enforced map control seems to be industry-standard in the post-C&C era to prevent turtling. Contemporaries like Warcraft and the Earth 2100 series weren't doing it - but then again, they also had finite resources on the map to force unwinnable stalemates if the battle dragged on for too long.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#3485: Jul 13th 2023 at 6:08:40 AM

I personally have a greater bone to pick with every single entry except Generals making infantry healing either tech structure dependent or faction-restricted.

I hate how they completely ditched infantry healing in Tiberium Wars outside of a very clunky, very inefficient route via a GDI Armory.

And then only can do so in RA 3 via hospital captures. Or veterancy. Or rare healing crates.

Enforced map control seems to be industry-standard in the post-C&C era to prevent turtling. Contemporaries like Warcraft and the Earth 2100 series weren't doing it - but then again, they also had finite resources on the map to force unwinnable stalemates if the battle dragged on for too long.

Which sounds like a big reason the RTS genre as a whole declined from its heyday of 1997-2005.

Plaster the map in endless urban sprawl just so you don’t run out of money in thirteen seconds.

Whatever happened to build bases and armies, go out and fight the other side’s stuff then destroy their base? Ya know actual strategy instead of spamming buildings everywhere? I know Blizzard RTS can get a little overboard at times because of the need to expand to (limited) resources that puts a hard cap on how much anyone can build but at least it put the focus on fighting over finding money.

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#3486: Jul 13th 2023 at 6:46:16 AM

puts a hard cap on how much anyone can build
Anyone but computer players, of course.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#3487: Jul 13th 2023 at 7:19:47 AM

Scrin can heal their infantry by standing on Tiberium. You can also use Corruptor as a Mook Medic.

Continue writing our story of peace.
amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#3488: Jul 13th 2023 at 1:05:41 PM

Nod could've had the Tiberium Infusion upgrade granting tiberium healing too, rather than just immunity. Expand it to all units and jack up the price to 4-5000 and we're good balance-wise.

Yinyang107 from the True North (Decatroper) Relationship Status: Tongue-tied
#3489: Jul 13th 2023 at 1:16:56 PM

[up][up][up][up] Allied engineers can set up medic tents, too. They're also the guys who get repair trucks so I guess they're the designated Regen faction.

RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3490: Jul 13th 2023 at 1:20:03 PM

I'd still take building bases next to resource spots over having to wait for resource trucks to move back and forth between bases over long distances any day. That was by far my least favorite part of the old RTS experience: being broke and tethered to the downtime of those slow-moving harvesters. Even in the old games these days I can't imagine myself not building Refineries near Tiberium/Ore fields by capturing bases/tech structures nearby.

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RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#3491: Jul 13th 2023 at 10:50:53 PM

I like the resource fields in the Dune and Tiberium series because they fit the lore, but it does feel weird when Red Alert does it.

Still, Tiberium Wars does give you multiple tools to get your refineries closer to the resources, like packing up and moving your MCV or deploying a cheap Surveyor.

Continue writing our story of peace.
RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3492: Jul 14th 2023 at 4:35:08 AM

[up]Indeed, and Red Alert 3 more or less followed suit. The big issue with Tiberium Wars' example however is, of course, how easily it depletes with two harvesters per field, as you're stuck with a single harvester and an economy with a noticeable downtime, or a Tiberium field that depletes in seconds. If that Tiberium regenerated fast enough with two harvesters per field (and the Tiberium yielded the credits given pre-multiplayer patch), the game would have been far better for it.

Red Alert 3's Ore mines, at least, had a lot more longevity. Though they didn't provide much on an individual basis, that's where they went more for the quantity strategy.

Edited by RainingMetal on Jul 14th 2023 at 4:35:58 AM

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SgtRicko Since: Jul, 2009
#3493: Jul 14th 2023 at 5:42:31 AM

So from what you guys are saying, it sounds like making a tier 3 economy structure similar to the ones from Generals might be a good idea then?

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#3494: Jul 14th 2023 at 6:10:23 AM

A resource generator is almost a must from a gameplay perspective. Since unlike Blizzard games where there’s cheat codes to grant resources in single player and skirmish modes (or a map editor to make infinite money maps for multiplayer), no such thing exists in CNC. Which means the AI cheating its way to infinite money is very blatant.

In multiplayer a fixed or semi fixed amount of resources can make sense as it forces a particular plan to win or at least be competitive. But if the match stalemates it becomes unfun and basically boils down to who agrees to just quit and take the loss.

Single player and skirmish have no such concerns. So if you built the AI to be capable of downright stalemating good players or force a Pendulum War, a lack of resources basically is a fun killer.

So make a resource generator to keep the fun going both ways. Or if using a Tiberium style resource, make it spread or regenerate fast enough and be valuable enough that you have effectively infinite supply so long as you don’t overdo it on harvesting thus artificially creating a drought.

EruditeEsotericist Since: May, 2015
#3495: Jul 14th 2023 at 7:09:45 AM

Yeah, I always go for resource generators when I can, in games that have them. Age of Empires II has relics, the Feitoria (unique building the Portuguese gets), trading, etc. And provided there's enough wood around (not an issue in most maps), farms and fish traps essentially provide infinite food, and you can trade for other stuff.

C&C has Oil Derricks in some maps, but they're pretty rare.

Edited by EruditeEsotericist on Jul 14th 2023 at 3:10:01 PM

RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#3496: Jul 14th 2023 at 7:09:56 AM

[up][up][up][up]Two Harvesters per field? I usually have four Harvesters for the first field alone.

Edited by RAlexa21th on Jul 14th 2023 at 7:22:51 AM

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MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#3497: Jul 14th 2023 at 7:29:56 AM

That’s part of what makes the economy so lousy in some games. It depletes the ore/Tiberium field too quickly while not providing enough money to get or keep you going. Especially in Tiberium Wars.

In Red Alert 2 two harvesters per field works well enough because the value is higher and there’s a lot more ore (and gems!) to work with for even more money. So you don’t need a ton of harvesters for anything.

And don’t forget the oil derricks. Those in Red Alert 2 provided enough money that a single one would keep you afloat for repairs or to replace a harvester in short enough order or if you had several you’d be swimming in cash. If you had like 6-7 of them like on the map Bay of Pigs, you gained money faster than it can be spent under certain circumstances.

Generals had no need for more than two Chinooks or Supply Trucks per dock. (Or about 5 workers for GLA.) And at high technology levels you had access to resource generators to keep you up. Rare were the situations you truly stalemated or had nothing whatsoever to work with.

MajorTom Since: Dec, 2009
#3498: Jul 14th 2023 at 7:37:57 AM

Yeah, I always go for resource generators when I can, in games that have them

It’s such a fun concept that I modded Red Alert 2 to have it inherently. All factions had vanilla level oil derrick level resource streams from a basic Refinery. And a later building such as the Industrial Plant gave enough that with that you basically had infinite money from then on out even if all your harvesters were destroyed and the oil derricks flattened. I had to tinker with it a fair bit to get it right and I might still not have it perfect. I had situations where I was building all of the most expensive stuff all at once and was still gaining money from just that.

amitakartok Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
#3499: Jul 14th 2023 at 1:43:37 PM

I wanted to put that in RA2 too, mostly because brutal difficulty AI tends to quickly run out of steam once it depletes its ore fields.


Did some Operation Stiletto today. From what I can tell, if you use planning mode to take out all of GDI at once, it's 50-50 whether the Scrin turn hostile too or if they just go around destroying the remaining GDI defenses, then go idle until you aggro them. Even then, they only attacked me ONCE before becoming so dormant I could capture Gravity Stabilizers with a full Stormrider load without any resistance. They had something like a dozen Tripods in their base but weren't going on the offensive.

Also, I am absolutely stunned how effective Juggernauts are against Tripods. TWO salvos brought a Tripod down to red health, way the hell faster than any Mammoth could.

RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#3500: Jul 14th 2023 at 2:00:41 PM

Generals had no need for more than two Chinooks or Supply Trucks per dock. (Or about 5 workers for GLA.) And at high technology levels you had access to resource generators to keep you up. Rare were the situations you truly stalemated or had nothing whatsoever to work with.

It didn't solve the issue of having excessive Chinooks/Supply Trucks once those supply docks ran out, which ends up being very quickly (but not as quickly as Tiberium Wars' Tiberium fields). I think the idea of finite resources in most RTS games comes from preventing games from going on forever, as unlimited resource generators such as the Supply Drop Zone, Internet Center, and Black Markets would indeed provide an infinite source of funds in the late game, but as a result, players could stalemate each other with endless armies. The trickled depletion of Tiberium/Ore in the Tiberian & Red Alert games had the right idea, of having a finite set of resources yet still putting those Harvesters/Miners/Collectors to use, even if extremely little. Combining it with Generals' infinite money generators, but downplaying those significantly (say, being only able to build one Supply Drop Zone, the Internet Center being at half capacity and not being able to train more Hackers, or having only one Black Market that produces more money on an individual basis) would be my solution to this problem.

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