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Trolling, Free Speech and the Law

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unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#2376: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:09:53 PM

[up]Thing is, they will said awfull things in other places it or mask the awfull things, also I was taking about general action outside this forum.

"One can still debate non-Nazis in the same space, but one needs not debate the Nazis themselves as they aren’t entitled such courtesy. "

You see, is hard to said this because aside of nazis being so obvious they are plenty of other group who will install their own version if they have the change: Christian theocrats, radical anti abortionist, corportovist and so many who vision are disgusting but benefit for not being nazis so they are offer a courteship I dont thing they should have.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
GraymanofBelka The Senate from Coruscant Since: Dec, 2017
The Senate
#2377: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:13:52 PM

[up][up]Again you have free speech as well you have just as much right to refute them as they have to spout their ideas

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#2378: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:15:10 PM

They have no right to spout their ideas. At all. There is literally no right to spout off white supremacy or white superiority.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#2379: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:17:06 PM

Quick note here: "never compromise, not even in the face of Armageddon" doesn't quite work as a definition quote here for two reasons: A) In context, Rorscharch is talking about refusing to compromise with mass murder, not something as mundane as "allowing Nazis to speak". B) By allowing Nazis to operate freely in the public sphere, you're effectively compromising with them.

Would you rather compromise with white supremacists or hate speech laws? There is no "neutral side". You have to choose.

edited 16th Mar '18 6:17:26 PM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Corvidae It's a bird. from Somewhere Else Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
It's a bird.
#2380: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:17:48 PM

through lawful democratic debate leading to laws to such effects.

You want to have lawful democratic debates about which things you should or shouldn't be allowed to argue for in lawful democratic debates?

That's... pretty much what we're already doing in this thread, isn't it? I'll just jump past all the bullshit: Let's say that you "win", and everything you want to ban gets banned. If I think that you mistakenly banned something harmless, or maybe forgot to ban something that according to your own criteria should have been banned, would you let me argue for that?

Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2381: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:21:44 PM

[up] Being a Neo Nazi is a crime, same with being a pedophile or a ephebophile. You cant have a lawful debate with a criminal who want to share criminal ideas.

edited 16th Mar '18 6:23:08 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
RabidTanker God-Mayor of Sim-Kind Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
God-Mayor of Sim-Kind
#2382: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:22:45 PM

@78: I thought free speech worked by someone saying whatever they want to say without fear of legal retribution until they start an riot or get someone killed behind their words?

Answer no master, never the slave Carry your dreams down into the grave Every heart, like every soul, equal to break
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#2383: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:25:42 PM

More limits than that.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2384: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:28:28 PM

[up][up] Well, Neo Nazis literally want to get people killed for their words, so there is not even "behind it"

Watch me destroying my country
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#2385: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:30:08 PM

" Rorscharch is talking about refusing to compromise with mass murder, not something as mundane as "allowing Nazis to speak""

Not really, it have been always about is principle in general, he dislike Ozymandias medding but he ALWAYS hate compromise: with the goverment, with Night owl, manhatta,etc.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
GraymanofBelka The Senate from Coruscant Since: Dec, 2017
The Senate
#2386: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:31:37 PM

Would you rather compromise with white supremacists or hate speech laws? There is no "neutral side". You have to choose.

1. You are insinuating that free speech advocates are Nazis/white supremacists. How dare you assume to know what my beliefs are better than I do Many free speech advocates such as my self detest actual Nazis and actual white supremacists. However, we do not get to pick and choose which free speech we get to defend because once again if the government can eliminate free speech for one group than no one is safe.

2. Be careful who you call Nazis or White Supremacists. Are you just referring to people who want to create a white ethnostate and/or kill all non whites or people whose political opinions are anywhere right of liberal.

3. Just because I refuse to compromise on 1 issue doesn't mean that I am unwilling to compromise on other issues. For some issues their is room (and in some cases a necessity) for compromise while for others their is absolutely zero room.

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#2387: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:32:28 PM

@Rabid Tanker: That only applies for the government-there is nothing protecting a bigot from being sued into bankruptcy for shouting slurs at a person or private business, and a lot of legal recourse to put them in prison for violations of civil rights that do not involve violence or public disruption.

Most of these bigots claiming the right to say whatever they want could not coherently explain the first amendment, let alone the legal precedent built up around it, if their life depended on it.

edited 16th Mar '18 6:32:50 PM by ViperMagnum357

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2388: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:32:42 PM

[up][up][up] Also, his extreme DETERMINATION and lack of compromise wasnt show as one of his personality flaws? Like, there situations were things could be better if he actually decided compromise?.

This life is made of compromises, the choice is what compromises one should do.

1. You are insinuating that free speech advocates are Nazis/white supremacists. How dare you assume to know what my beliefs are better than I do Many free speech advocates such as my self detest actual Nazis and actual white supremacists. However, we do not get to pick and choose which free speech we get to defend because once again if the government can eliminate free speech for one group than no one is safe.

That is right, not all supporters of PURE 100% FREE NO PAY free sppech are neo nazis.

Just people willing to let them do what they want. That is SLIGHTLY better

edited 16th Mar '18 6:35:36 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
AlityrosThePhilosopher from Over There Since: Jan, 2018
#2389: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:35:50 PM

unknowing (#2376):
You see, is hard to said this because aside of nazis being so obvious they are plenty of other group who will install their own version if they have the change: Christian theocrats, radical anti abortionist, corportovist and so many who vision are disgusting but benefit for not being nazis so they are offer a courteship I dont thing they should have.
The same criteria apply: they deny my freedom and yours by claiming theirs doesn’t end where yours and mine begin.

[up][up]

Corvidae:
You want to have lawful democratic debates about which things you should or shouldn't be allowed to argue for in lawful democratic debates? That's... pretty much what we're already doing in this thread, isn't it?

I'll just jump past all the bullshit: Let's say that you "win", and everything you want to ban gets banned. If I think that you mistakenly banned something harmless, or maybe forgot to ban something that according to your own criteria should have been banned, would you let me argue for that?

It’s being done in various enlightened democracies with moderately satisfactory results. One example among many others: there are many countries where Nazi marches and similar displays of asshattery are treated with little or no leniency.
Policies, including about hate-speech, are still freely debated there, and the people enjoy no less freedom than in the good old USofA, despite random hysterics about the skies falling.

[Edit: But acknowledging that some faraway Gnomeland has achieved something one could use is often frowned upon in any country, might as well throw away rods and hogshead and go metric.]

edited 16th Mar '18 6:55:42 PM by AlityrosThePhilosopher

Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#2390: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:39:38 PM

You are insinuating that free speech advocates are Nazis/white supremacists.

You misunderstand me. I'm not accusing free speech advocates of being Nazis. I'm stating that by giving nazi free reins to speak, you're compromising with them, because a public debate is inherently built on the possibility that either party can be correct. By saying "everyone deserves a right to speak" you're making a compromise by assuming that the Nazis have, to some extent, the possibility of being right.

In other words, you're making a compromise with Nazis.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
GraymanofBelka The Senate from Coruscant Since: Dec, 2017
The Senate
#2391: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:43:03 PM

Just people willing to let them do what they want. That is SLIGHTLY better

Freedom of speech and freedom of action are 2 different matters. If Nazis TALK about eliminating so called "undesirables", I would definitely find their ideas abhorrent and I might try to debate them but I would not deny them the ability to speak their mind. If they actively started killing those that they deem as undesirable then I would actively oppose them.

Did you ever hear the tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise?
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#2392: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:48:47 PM

And there, Belka, is where you run into the free speech paradox. Say a Neo-Nazi is giving a lecture on how Mein Kampf is absolutely right in a university, and the audience cheers and claps for him. Say there's a Romani boy in the crowd, who is there to argue back against the Neo-Nazis's stance. How welcome do you think his free speech would feel in that scenario? Wouldn't he far less willing to speak on account of the fact he's literally surrounded by people who are advocating the extermination of his entire race?

Some speeches are built around censoring others.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#2393: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:49:17 PM

[up][up] Ah, the typical argument.

We let them talk about how much they want to ban muslims from USA, then they start talking about how they want punch muslims until they left and then then talk about how they want to kill them if they dont leave the country.

Then, when a mass shooting happens and there dead muslims. We would be wondering "why?".

Do you want slippery slope? Have a more realistic one.

[down] That is how it feels certainly, "lets wait until they start killing people to do something"

edited 16th Mar '18 6:52:07 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
AlityrosThePhilosopher from Over There Since: Jan, 2018
#2394: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:50:21 PM

[up][up][up]Just so I clearly understand, should one wait to see dead bodies before considering active opposition?

edited 16th Mar '18 6:54:16 PM by AlityrosThePhilosopher

Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#2395: Mar 16th 2018 at 6:59:05 PM

"Like, there situations were things could be better if he actually decided compromise?."

Kinda yes and no, the comic does show it does have a sort of good point because other back down by inercia(Dr Manhattan), cowardness(Night Owl) or lack of direction(Sally) the desconstrution come from him having to set everything it tighed boxes in order to mantain his wordview(The comedian being "Inocent" so he can be the hero for example) once he cant, he wants to die.

"By saying "everyone deserves a right to speak" you're making a compromise by assuming that the Nazis have, to some extent, the possibility of being right."

You see here is where it fall, the posibility to speak dosent mean it can be correct, it mean you can talk, I can said the sky is red all damn life long with you and it dosent mean I will be right, in all pratical efect im wrong.

[up]Is someone is going to atack another, they are not going to talk anyway, they have sold whatever right to be treated with respect and they know it.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Corvidae It's a bird. from Somewhere Else Since: Nov, 2014 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
It's a bird.
#2396: Mar 16th 2018 at 7:02:10 PM

Policies, including about hate-speech, are still freely debated there

Is that a "yes" then? Because hearing you unambiguously say that would make me a lot more sympathetic to your cause.

You cant have a lawful debate with a criminal who want to share criminal ideas.

This kind of comment on the other hand... not so much.

Still a great "screw depression" song even after seven years.
AlityrosThePhilosopher from Over There Since: Jan, 2018
#2397: Mar 16th 2018 at 7:03:09 PM

[up]An affirmative yes.

edited 16th Mar '18 7:04:29 PM by AlityrosThePhilosopher

Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#2398: Mar 16th 2018 at 7:06:27 PM

"The same criteria apply: they deny my freedom and yours by claiming theirs doesn’t end where yours and mine begin."

B Ut you see....that dosent happen, because they are not the obivious target nazis are, they have to engage and debate over and over and over with the theorcrats, the radical anti abortion and so own.

I mean, when I read about why people tolerate communist more than facist it kinda make my blood boil consider how that is running my country(and for real, not the alt right interpetation of it) is just how things are sometimes.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AlityrosThePhilosopher from Over There Since: Jan, 2018
#2399: Mar 16th 2018 at 7:15:24 PM

[up]I have patience as much for the former as a I do the latter, that is not much. And while I won’t make others stop debating former or latter, I keep supporting solid hate-speach policies making it as difficult as humanly possible for them to do harm.

Just as my freedom ends where yours begins my tolerance of you ends where your intolerance toward me begins. As told by an old friend
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#2400: Mar 16th 2018 at 7:22:02 PM

[up]For me the alt right are this decade pseudo science or fundamentalist: bullshit seller who know they cant win so they cheat every damn time, I feel ofended by their stupidity as their racism, so is a plesure for me to smack their atempt of bullshittery everytime I can.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"

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