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TheNohen roaming, lurking, arguing from Leipzig, Saxony Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
roaming, lurking, arguing
#4051: Jan 17th 2021 at 5:52:26 AM

The point its, one does not have to like the Greens, or vote for them. But comparing them to people like Jill Stein and the like, is not sensible.

One can be worried about the AFD gaining power. One can be worried about the Linke getting popular. Getting worried about the Greens isn't necessary, even if one disagree's with some of their policies.

EDIT: Page-topper. How quaint.

Edited by TheNohen on Jan 17th 2021 at 2:52:58 PM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#4052: Jan 17th 2021 at 7:27:15 AM

I’m not sure where the Jill Stein comparison came from, I certainly didn’t make it.

I’d compare them to the British Greens, who I’d like, except that I’m Autistic so I find them pretty offensive on a person level due to their anti-vac views.

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#4053: Jan 17th 2021 at 7:28:58 AM

[up] Thing is, the German Greens are neither comparable to the American nor the British Greens, where weird or downright dangerous anti-science views seem to be the norm.

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DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#4054: Jan 25th 2021 at 8:44:15 PM

Germany's far-right AfD braces for surveillance

Germany's domestic security agency is on the verge of announcing whether the far-right Af D will be placed under surveillance for posing a threat to democracy, dealing a potential blow to the anti-immigration party in a key election year.

After a two-year investigation and a report totalling over 1,000 pages, the Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (Bf V) is to decide in the coming days if the Alternative for Germany (Af D) will be classed as a "suspected case" over its ties to right-wing extremism.

The classification would allow intelligence agents to shadow the party, tap its communications and possibly use undercover informants.

The anti-Islam, anti-immigration Af D has often courted controversy by calling for Germany to stop atoning for its World War II crimes. Senior figure Alexander Gauland once described the Nazi era as just "a speck of bird poo" on German history.

The Bf V's decision comes at a sensitive time for the Af D. While it is the largest opposition party in parliament, it has seen its ratings fall as the pandemic has kept the spotlight firmly on Chancellor Angela Merkel's ruling coalition parties.

Af D leader Joerg Meuthen has vowed to take legal action if the Bf V decides to begin surveillance, accusing the government-run agency of playing politics in what pundits have dubbed a "super election year" in Germany.

The Af D faces six regional elections this year and a general election on September 26, the first in over 15 years that won't feature Merkel.

The first regional test will come with state polls in Baden-Wuerttemberg and Rhineland-Palatinate on March 14, where support for the Af D is hovering around 10 percent.

- Radical 'Wing' -

The Af D started out at as an anti-euro outfit in 2013 before capitalising on public anger over Merkel's 2015 decision to allow in a wave of asylum seekers from conflict-torn countries like Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq.

The Af D took nearly 13 percent of the vote in the 2017 general election, allowing it to make its debut in the German Bundestag.

But the party has long been locked in an internal battle between an extremist faction and populist, conservative members who are wary of scaring off mainstream voters.

Germany's domestic intelligence service already placed a radical fringe of the party, known as The Wing, under surveillance last year over its association with known neo-Nazis and on suspicion of violating the constitution.

The faction, led by firebrand Bjoern Hoecke, dissolved itself last March but many of its 7,000 members remain active in the Af D.

"This gives rise to doubts about whether they really lost influence," Der Spiegel weekly said.

Hoecke, the Af D's leader in Thuringia state, famously referred to Germany's Holocaust Memorial in Berlin as "a monument of shame" and has called for a "180 degree reversal" in the country's remembrance culture.

The Af D's Thuringia branch and another one in Brandenburg have also been designated as "suspected cases" of right-wing extremism by the Bf V.

The authorities' concern about the Af D has grown after the country suffered a string of right-wing, anti-Semitic attacks in recent years. The risk of violence from Germany's far-right scene is now considered the country's top threat.

Af D chief Meuthen has struggled to rein in the party's more radical figures, telling a congress in November that they would not win over voters by being "increasingly crude, aggressive".

He also rubbished comparisons of the current coronavirus restrictions with a "dictatorship", as Af D lawmaker Gauland had done.

Nevertheless, more than a few of the Af D's 35,000 members are believed to harbour extremist sympathies.

One of them, Andreas Kalbitz, was the head of the Af D in Brandenburg before he was kicked out for hiding his past membership in a neo-Nazi youth group.

"The Af D could be declared a suspected case because it is dominated by the radical wing of the party, whose influence has only grown in recent months," Hajo Funke, a political scientist at Berlin's Free University, told AFP.

As for the party's chances at the ballot box in 2021, Funke said "endless" infighting had left the Af D without clear policies, settling instead on "simply saying the opposite of whatever the government proposes".

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#4055: Jan 25th 2021 at 10:08:22 PM

[up] Took them long enough, but it is understandable that they want to be careful in their assessment. Putting the greatest opposition party under surveillance could be taken the wrong way after all, but I have no doubt that the Af D provides then with enough evidence to do so.

TheNohen roaming, lurking, arguing from Leipzig, Saxony Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
roaming, lurking, arguing
#4056: Jan 26th 2021 at 4:05:34 AM

That is huge, given the elections in 2021. As article mentioned, the AFD will have to contend not only with several state-elections, but also the general election in September. And they are so not prepared for it.

In essence, the AFD faces the same issue as the Republicans in the United States. Aka, increased infighting with its radical right wing and increasing polarization that comes with their repeated corruption-offenses. Add to that, that by now they have solely defined themselves as "being against whatever Merkel is supporting", which keeps backfiring as the chancellors crisis-management is generally supported even by some of the AFD's targeted voters.

What we see here is the years of radicalization populism and corruption finally coming back to bite the AFD at the worst possible moment.

Edited by TheNohen on Jan 26th 2021 at 1:12:07 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#4057: Jan 26th 2021 at 4:14:51 AM

People should be keeping watch on the Afd, especially in light of what happened in the USA on January 6th.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheNohen roaming, lurking, arguing from Leipzig, Saxony Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
roaming, lurking, arguing
#4058: Jan 26th 2021 at 4:24:01 AM

Oh, I have no doubt that there is a good reason why this was announced now. And german domestic intelligence has shifted its focus on right-wing terrorism for some time now. Ever since the lynching in Chemnitz and the attempted (and one even succesful) attack on elected, non-right officials, right-radical groups have gotten under increased scrutiny.

Its not a coincidence that with the increasing radicalization of right-wing parties in other western countries, that now greater surveillance is used on similar groups in germany. Nobody wants a "Capitol-Storming" with German Dub, so to speak.

Heck, they increased the Bundestag security right after January the 6th.

Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#4059: Jan 26th 2021 at 5:38:12 AM

[up][up][up]

Those setbacks for the Af D are a good thing, but I am afraid that this is not going to permanently weaken the party. They are still polling at 10% at the federal level and around 20% in some states, that is concerning given that Germany's economic situation is still stable. Once the economic fallout of the pandemie hits, they might very well surge again in the polls.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#4060: Jan 26th 2021 at 5:59:31 AM

Yeah, I fear that, if anything, it will give them an underdog-boost.

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TheNohen roaming, lurking, arguing from Leipzig, Saxony Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
roaming, lurking, arguing
#4061: Jan 26th 2021 at 6:35:11 AM

I would disagree with that. The AFD has no current policies, no plans, no projects...heck, they don't even have a popular candidate for September. I'm not sure where they're going to summon new voters beyond the ones they already got. Conservatives are not going to vote for them, thats for sure.

The AFD has gotten increasingly more toxic over the last two years and their infighting has not done much good in the public either. I'm not seeing a fast recovery in the coming months, if this trend continues.

This isn't a easy sell like in 2015 with "Immigration is bad". They would have to defend their lack of response to the Covid-Crisis, their lack of a policy-program, their continued association with the right-radical wing and now also why they are essentially considered a public risk.

And all that, while still being crippled by Hoecke & Co.

I'm not saying that a recovery is impossible, but I wouldn't really bet on it. Especially not with the way the AFD currently operates.

Edited by TheNohen on Jan 26th 2021 at 3:37:16 PM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#4062: Jan 26th 2021 at 8:16:49 AM

[up] Their attempts to tie themselves to the dumpster fire that is Trump also can't help.

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#4063: Feb 21st 2021 at 2:07:08 AM

Opinion: Germany Is Treating a Major Party as a Threat to Its Democracy

Alternative for Germany may be deemed a “suspected case” of extremist activity. The United States should take note.

BERLIN — Should a government agency put a democratically elected political party under surveillance if the party is feared to be a threat to the democratic order?

This question is the subject of fierce debate and a legal battle here. Late last month, the German media reported that the domestic intelligence service, the Office for the Protection of the Constitution, was poised to declare the far-right Alternative for Germany party a “suspected case” of antidemocratic extremist activity. The party’s anti-immigrant and anti-Islam talk has emboldened far-right extremists, and some of its officials have ties to extremist groups.

The “suspected case” designation would give the intelligence service broad powers to surveil the party’s politicians and staff members, including tapping their phones and monitoring their movements. Certain highly radical parts of the party are already under surveillance.

Leaders of Alternative for Germany — the largest party outside the governing bloc in Parliament — pre-emptively took the Office for the Protection of the Constitution to court, arguing that the designation was a political maneuver designed to hurt the party’s chances in federal elections in September. The legal battle could take months to resolve.

The dispute raises questions about how a democratic state should draw the line between what is and isn’t politically acceptable, especially when extreme opinions seem to foster violent action. In the United States, these questions have become more urgent in the wake of the storming of the Capitol last month. Germany has been wrestling with them for years — and with renewed focus since the Alternative for Germany won its first parliamentary seats in 2017.

The German experience suggests that democracies must establish defense mechanisms against such internal extremist threats. This includes drawing clear lines for acceptable democratic behavior and formally penalizing parties and movements that cross them.

The Alternative for Germany party — widely known by its German initials, Af D — was founded in early 2013, driven largely by concerns about the country’s involvement in international debt relief. The party became a major political force by protesting the influx of refugees into Germany in 2015 and 2016. It has grown more radical over the years, often blurring the lines between its official party structures and the country’s informal network of right-extremist movements.

Some in the party, for example, have ties with organizations like Generation Identity, a far-right youth group opposed to political liberalism and non-European immigrants. Andreas Kalbitz, an Af D leader in the eastern German state of Brandenburg, was ejected from the party last year after he was accused of belonging to a banned neo-Nazi youth organization and failing to disclose his membership.

The Constitution that Germany adopted after World War II establishes what is often called a “defensive democracy,” with several provisions aimed at preventing a far-right extremist force like the Nazis from taking power again. Not only can the domestic intelligence service gather information on any political movement or party that it deems a threat to the democratic order, but the constitutional court can also ban parties based on what the intelligence service finds. (Such bans have occurred twice since 1949, first with the neo-Nazi Socialist Reich Party in 1952 and again with the Communist Party of Germany in 1956.) Publicly displaying Nazi symbols is illegal in Germany, as is denying the Holocaust, and hate speech is less protected under the law than it is in the United States.

Since the Af D entered Parliament, it has frequently tested this “defensive democracy,” pushing — and often crossing — the boundaries of acceptable public discourse. Its politicians have suggested that migrants could be shot at the border or gassed. They have dabbled in conspiracy theories like the “Great Replacement,” which imagines a coordinated campaign to replace Europe’s white population with non-European people. They have even sought to downplay the horrors of the Nazi past: An Af D leader named Alexander Gauland notoriously described the Nazi era as a mere “speck of bird poop” in German history.

All this comes as political violence here is on the rise. In the past two years, right-wing extremists have murdered the politician Walter Lübcke (he had argued that Germans who did not support taking in refugees could leave the country themselves); killed two people after attempting to storm a synagogue on Yom Kippur in Halle; and shot and killed nine people in two hookah bars in Hanau. Although none of the perpetrators were directly linked to the Af D, its rhetoric has helped foster anti-refugee, anti-immigrant sentiments in Germany.

That does not mean that using constitutional tools to push back against an extremist political party is easy. More than five million Germans voted for the Af D in 2017, and while its support has dropped during the pandemic, it remains a significant force in the German Parliament. Whenever government agencies or other parties penalize the Af D, its leaders claim that the party is being persecuted — which only bolsters the conviction among its supporters that more mainstream political parties are indifferent to their concerns.

In addition, the Office for the Protection of the Constitution has sometimes contributed to the problem it now seeks to solve. It has been rightly criticized, for instance, for having a historical blind spot when it comes to the far right. One of its chiefs, Hans-Georg Maassen, lost his job in 2018 after downplaying far-right violence in Chemnitz.

Still, Germany has an arsenal of constitutional tools to protect against extremist forces, even if using them generates controversy and accusations of persecution. “Defensive democracy” is working, at least in the sense that the domestic intelligence service has recognized a threat and is taking steps to eliminate it. At a time when disinformation, political polarization and far-right forces are combining to endanger democracies across the West, other countries should take note.

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#4064: Feb 21st 2021 at 7:13:14 AM

Good for Germany, but in regards to the "The United States should take note" bit I don't see how this is useful for our situation.

We're a two-party system, declaring the other party criminal is just a recipe for sectarian violence or one-party rule. The former is undesirable, and the latter is nonviable.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 21st 2021 at 7:14:06 AM

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#4065: Feb 21st 2021 at 7:18:12 AM

[up]

I don't think the author is expecting the US to straight up ban the GOP.

It's more that the US should take a good look at how other countries are dealing with political extremism and take some lessons from that.

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Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#4066: Feb 21st 2021 at 7:26:29 AM

It's easier to do that when that party doesn't make up half the country (more or less) though.

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Ramidel (Before Time Began) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#4067: Feb 21st 2021 at 11:06:49 AM

Even America doesn't have enough prisons to lock up 70 million people.

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#4068: Feb 21st 2021 at 11:30:33 AM

Should a government agency put a democratically elected political party under surveillance if the party is feared to be a threat to the democratic order?

I don't see how this could be a serious question. If a party is a threat to the democratic order, it needs to be treated as such, no matter the amount of support it enjoys. In fact the Federal Constitutional Court ruled that the ultima ratio - banning a party - can only happen if a party is both undermining democracy and actually popular enough to have significant political influence. Hence a fringe party like the NPD is still around.

The Verfassungsschutz has - justifiably so - put the Left party under surveillance for years and it ought to do the same with the Af D,

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#4069: Mar 3rd 2021 at 4:26:31 AM

Germany’s far-right AfD placed under security service surveillance

BERLIN — The far-right Alternative for Germany (Af D) has been placed under surveillance by the country’s domestic security service, several German media outlets reported Wednesday.

The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (Bf V) has declared the entire party as a so-called “suspected case” of far-right extremism. This enables the service to step up its monitoring of the Af D, allowing it to observe and wiretap individual members and hire internal informants.

The Af D’s youth organization has already been classified as a “suspected case” and the party is under surveillance in four of Germany’s federal states. But as Germany heads toward federal and multiple regional elections this year, the party has sought to avert Bf V monitoring for the whole Af D by filing several lawsuits in January.

As a result of that ongoing legal dispute, the Bf V will refrain from surveilling elected Af D members of the federal, regional and European parliaments, Der Spiegel reported. The same exemption will apply to candidates running in the upcoming elections.

The Bf V has not publicly confirmed the decision to monitor the party. The Süddeutsche Zeitung reported that the Bf V’s president told the leaders of the regional domestic security service branches on Wednesday morning that the Af D has been surveilled as a “suspected case” since February 25.

The service’s decision is based on a report of some 1,000 pages by lawyers and extremism experts, who have been compiling the document since the beginning of 2019.

A significant factor is concern over the influence of the so-called Flügel (“wing”), the Af D’s extreme-right faction, which came under surveillance in 2019. The Flügel disbanded last year after the Bf V concluded it was a “proven extremist endeavor,” but the security service has since warned of a growing influence of the Flügel’s former members within the party and there are doubts as to what degree the group continues to operate.

The Af D is not the first party to come under Bf V surveillance. The left-wing party Die Linke was monitored from 2007 to 2014 over suspicions of extremist tendencies related to its roots in the former East German Communist Party.

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#4070: Mar 7th 2021 at 1:27:08 PM

Also, "Vegan Hitler" Attila Hildman is now officialy "wanted" by the authorities, but it seems like he fled to Turkey

https://dtj-online.de/attila-hildmann-flucht-tuerkei/

Edited by Forenperser on Mar 7th 2021 at 10:27:29 AM

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DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#4071: Mar 7th 2021 at 1:33:37 PM

Honestly, they can keep him.

Welcome to Estalia, gentlemen.
Ominae Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent Since: Jul, 2010
Organized Canine Bureau Special Agent
#4072: Mar 7th 2021 at 7:05:14 PM

The surveillance on the AfD kinda reminds me of what Public Security in Japan is doing, except that's centered on the mainstream communist party.

"Exit muna si Polgas. Ang kailangan dito ay si Dobermaxx!"
Ramidel (Before Time Began) Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#4073: Mar 8th 2021 at 3:00:04 AM

The difference is that the AfD's "alternative" means an alternative to the constitutional order.

The JCP is just a meme party with an insane foreign policy (and overall, they're still better than the LDP nowadays...).

I despise hypocrisy, unless of course it is my own.
Zarastro Since: Sep, 2010
#4074: Mar 8th 2021 at 3:12:51 AM

In Japan we have the rather odd case of a party being observed despite being arguable more protective off constitution than the government.

However we can be pretty sure that the Af D would implememt some drastic constitutional changes if they ever got the chance

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#4075: Apr 18th 2021 at 2:50:31 AM

Seems like that would be the case indeed, aside from the usual closed borders/exiting the Euro/restricting Islam they also want a directly elected president and Swiss-style referenda.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

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