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Trayvon Martin & racial profiling in America

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TheDeadMansLife Lover of masks. Since: Nov, 2009
Lover of masks.
#201: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:37:46 AM

No, a group of white people literally conspired to make slaves exclusively blacks followed by years of white people growing up with the notion that they are inherently better than blacks.

The systematic oppression of blacks by the police is not exclusive to blacks. The oppress everyone. The poor, the gay, etc. The police are not composed of a single group of people. They are very diverse and so are the victims.

Please.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#202: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:39:39 AM

[up] Okay. Agreed. So...what's your point?

It was an honor
TheDeadMansLife Lover of masks. Since: Nov, 2009
Lover of masks.
#203: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:40:22 AM

My point is, why single out blacks to lose their shit?

edited 4th Apr '12 11:40:31 AM by TheDeadMansLife

Please.
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#204: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:41:08 AM

"Buck up camper, and quit whining." I think that summarizes it.

I'm a skeptical squirrel
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#205: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:44:16 AM

Ah. I get it now.

First of all, it's wrong. Blacks are targets more than gays, hippies, the poor, whoever..by far.

Second, us losing our shit doesn't preclude other groups of people having a major beef. "Well, I shouldn't get too upset, because other folks get a raw deal" ain't gonna fly here.

edited 4th Apr '12 11:44:51 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
wuggles (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#206: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:46:16 AM

[up][up][up] Because this case isn't about gays or poor people. Also, he didn't say that discrimination against blacks is more important than any other group. Let's not play "oppression olympics" here.

edited 4th Apr '12 11:46:26 AM by wuggles

TheDeadMansLife Lover of masks. Since: Nov, 2009
Lover of masks.
#207: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:46:56 AM

It never works out for the blacks when they lose their shit though. It makes it worse for them.

[up]It's not really about black oppression either. It's one single guy against a child.

edited 4th Apr '12 11:47:39 AM by TheDeadMansLife

Please.
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#208: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:49:03 AM

It never works out for any minority group when they lose their shit though. It makes it worse for them.

Expanded.

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#209: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:49:18 AM

The response to the crime is the issue here.

You're just trying to stir the pot again.

I'm a skeptical squirrel
TheDeadMansLife Lover of masks. Since: Nov, 2009
Lover of masks.
#210: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:50:39 AM

The response to the crime? I don't think it has to do with the victim being black. The department in question has a very questionable history of sweeping shit under the rug.

Please.
inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#211: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:51:48 AM

I don't think it has to do with the victim being black. The department in question has a very questionable history of sweeping shit under the rug.

You act as though these things are mutually exclusive.

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#212: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:54:48 AM

There's thing called internalized racism, and some black police officers actively invoke it. There's actually a character in the movie Boyz in the Hood that serves as a pretty realistic example of how authority and internalized hatred can blend into one another. And of course, we have numerous examples of this occurring throughout history such as black slave catchers hunting down members of their own tribe, Jews selling secrets to the Nazis in exchange for safety, etc. Humans Are Bastards, The Quisling and all that jazz.

De Marquis made a good point about what I believe is the nucleus of this issue. Race relations, age relations (more specifically, the disconnect between the young and the old) are both important factors to consider, but the main conflict here seems to be that we have a problem being able to tell the difference between self-defense and excessive use of force. Of all the martial arts seminars and classes I've attended and taught, it never ceases to amaze me how people will invent reasons to use excessive force.

I also don't believe it's entirely coincidental that this incident falls on the heels of a fairly volatile societal dynamic in which we probably haven't been more paranoid since the Cold War. 9/11, the subsequent Patriot Act, rising tensions on issues of gay marriage and religious tolerance and an exhaustive war on two fronts have all contributed to a particularly trigger-happy, fear-induced general public. It's anecdotal, I know, but I've seen enough students in class to assert this belief. The number of people taking classes in hand-to-hand fighting has steadily risen since 9/11 along with firearms purchases and food stockpiling. That whole 2012 nonsense isn't helping, either.

What does this have to do with Zimmerman? I'm not sure, honestly, but we might be overanalyzing his motivations for shooting Martin, and it really could be that he just got some sort of high or adrenaline rush from following and shooting him. It would morbidly exciting to do something like that. I have a few reservations about Dave Grossman, but his research on what he calls "killology" demonstrates many interesting elements that might explain the incident we're discussing. Violence in the modern American imagination is quite different from the kill-or-be-killed prehistoric stereotype of our ancestors, and there is some immense confusion about the subtle legal and moral definitions of justifiable self-defense. More importantly, now is a good time for us to start asking some difficult and uncomfortable questions about the average citizen's capacity for discerning justifiable use of force, and right now, it's looking pretty bleak.

Got ninja'd.

edited 4th Apr '12 12:00:34 PM by Aprilla

Midgetsnowman Since: Jan, 2010
#213: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:58:35 AM

[up]

especially when pro-gun proponents who've never ever had to make the decisuion to shoot someone in their entire lifespan do everything in their power to paint martin as a monster.

inane242 Anwalt der Verdammten from A B-Movie Bildungsroman Since: Nov, 2010
Anwalt der Verdammten
#214: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:59:34 AM

I haven't seen any of that.

And punctuation. Dude, it's not optional.

edited 4th Apr '12 12:00:00 PM by inane242

The 5 geek social fallacies. Know them well.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#215: Apr 4th 2012 at 12:24:29 PM

Wicked 62.4% of hate crime commiters were white. The white population at the time of those statistics was 72.4%.

18.5% were black. The black population was 12.6%

Are you saying that there are a higher saturation of black hate criminals because the statistic of the ones that do it is higher than the number of blacks proportionate to whites?

Because I don't think statistics work that way.

edited 4th Apr '12 12:26:21 PM by KingZeal

TheDeadMansLife Lover of masks. Since: Nov, 2009
Lover of masks.
#216: Apr 4th 2012 at 12:57:11 PM

Nope.

Please.
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#217: Apr 4th 2012 at 1:01:24 PM

So what are the statistics supposed to be saying? I'm confused.

Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest Since: Apr, 2009
#218: Apr 4th 2012 at 1:09:56 PM

By themselves? Nothing. They're simply an FBI report on the racial distribution among hate crime offenders.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#219: Apr 4th 2012 at 1:32:07 PM

It never works out for the blacks when they lose their shit though. It makes it worse for them.

Absolutely no argument with this.

It was an honor
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#220: Apr 4th 2012 at 1:39:35 PM

[up][up] Specifically, I meant what Dead Man's Life was trying to say. He seemed to have an argument.

Qeise Professional Smartass from sqrt(-inf)/0 Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Professional Smartass
#221: Apr 4th 2012 at 1:58:09 PM

The statistics Dead Man is talking about mean a black person is more likely to commit a hatecrime than a white person. But that's kind of irrelevant.

Laws are made to be broken. You're next, thermodynamics.
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#222: Apr 4th 2012 at 1:59:12 PM

"No, a group of white people literally conspired to make slaves exclusively blacks followed by years of white people growing up with the notion that they are inherently better than blacks." -Dead man

You obviously don't understand how the slave trade worked. A portugese ship visited Africa and was sold slaves by a AFRICAN TRIBE. Then from there it built up. While, obviously, it wouldn't have existed without Whites buying slaves, neither would it have existed without Blacks enslaving each other.

On the topic at hand- the stats merely show that Blacks commit racist acts proportionally more often than whites. Make of that what you will.

edited 4th Apr '12 1:59:33 PM by Joesolo

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Vellup I have balls. from America Since: Mar, 2011 Relationship Status: The Skitty to my Wailord
I have balls.
#223: Apr 4th 2012 at 2:00:30 PM

I'm not really up to date on this event, so just for reference, what are the known facts about this case? Most importantly, is it possible to tell what exactly happened that day? What specifically has been proven thus far?

They never travel alone.
Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#224: Apr 4th 2012 at 2:07:55 PM

We still have almost no clue. Consensus is that the Police screwed up some and should have at least held him longer.

It's still unclear if he struck first. There was an unclear video that supposedly disproved injury to Zimm, but an enhanced version showed a cleaned-up wound to the back of his head and the police reported a broken nose and head injury. The cries of help that were recorded have been proven as mostly likely not being Zimmerman, but with no recording of Martin they cannot be sure it's him.

Other than that nothings really changed, unless you count the Black panthers putting a bounty on Zimmerman.

edited 4th Apr '12 2:08:24 PM by Joesolo

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Enkufka Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ from Bay of White fish Since: Dec, 2009
Wandering Student ಠ_ಠ
#225: Apr 4th 2012 at 2:12:16 PM

Which isn't really relevant. There's also the phone call which Martin was having with his girlfriend leading up to the altercation, indicating that Martin was trying to get away from Zimmerman.

Very big Daydream Believer. "That's not knowledge, that's a crapshoot!" -Al Murray "Welcome to QI" -Stephen Fry

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