TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

Trayvon Martin & racial profiling in America

Go To

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#176: Apr 4th 2012 at 5:10:18 AM

I haven't been following this thread too closely, so I don't know if this has been brought up, but is it possible that Zimmerman wasn't prejudiced against Martin because he was black, but was prejudiced against him because he was a teenager? Maybe this is exposing my own biases, but I don't usually think of Neighborhood Watchmen as being very youth-friendly.

PhilippeO Since: Oct, 2010
#177: Apr 4th 2012 at 5:26:08 AM

certainly possible, Zimmerman did have black friend, but Zimmerman motive is not much important. Police just have to sent Zimmerman to court, the failure of police to do so that cause condemnation and accusation of racial bias.

In my view, Zimmerman have condemned himself by pursuing Martin, which 911 has banned Zimmerman to do. whatever Zimmerman motive, or who started the punching and fighting is irrelevant. Martin have right to defend himself against unknown man who pursue and follow him. It is zimmerman duty to prove that he have authority, reason, and warrant to pursue Martin.

RavenWilder Since: Apr, 2009
#178: Apr 4th 2012 at 5:44:39 AM

Wait, is it illegal to follow someone around on a public street in Florida?

I'm not being sarcastic; I'm genuinely curious.

0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#179: Apr 4th 2012 at 5:49:01 AM

He called 911 about Martin, and they asked him, "Are you following him?" When he replied in the affirmative, they said, "Okay, we don't need you to do that."

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
PhilippeO Since: Oct, 2010
#180: Apr 4th 2012 at 5:57:36 AM

[up][up] i don't think so, need tropers with more legal knowledge here. personally i think following someone is removing self-defence justification, if you follow someone and get punched, defending yourself with gun is too excessive.

Carciofus Is that cake frosting? from Alpha Tucanae I Since: May, 2010
Is that cake frosting?
#181: Apr 4th 2012 at 5:57:40 AM

they said, "Okay, we don't need you to do that."
That, by the way, could have been phrased better by 911. "We don't need you to do that" can be interpreted as "Stop doing that before you cause a mess", but also as "You helped us enough already, you don't have to do anything more. But if you want, you can."

edited 4th Apr '12 6:20:08 AM by Carciofus

But they seem to know where they are going, the ones who walk away from Omelas.
0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#182: Apr 4th 2012 at 6:12:21 AM

Definitely agreed there.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#183: Apr 4th 2012 at 6:46:27 AM

[up][up]Though I haven't listened to the phone log myself, it's possible that they did actually phrase 'we don't need you to do that' as 'that's a really stupid idea, stop it now'. Tone of voice is important.

What's precedent ever done for us?
KingZeal Since: Oct, 2009
#184: Apr 4th 2012 at 6:52:58 AM

Since black is 20% of US population, black criminal that perfectly race blind will still commit crime to 4 white victim to every 1 black victim. That did not even consider economic situation, since crime perpetrator will pick richer victim, the majority of victim is certainly white, that is purely economic, there are no "hate" component. Statistic that there are more black on white crime in US is irrelevant on hate crime discussion.

Wait, what? I could have sworn that the majority of victims of black criminals were black themselves. And that's just the stuff that's reported. In general, blacks from poor neighborhoods don't report crime everyday because they see no point.

I've seen the whole "the majority of victims of black crime are white" argument before, but when I looked at the statistics, it didn't match.

TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#185: Apr 4th 2012 at 7:45:05 AM

Long time no see Erik [up].

As soon as blacks stop committing a disproportionate number of hate crimes per their population, and whites commit more hate crimes proportionate to their population.

Or, and this is just a suggestion, you can realize this was a Hispanic versus African-American and that hate crimes go pretty evenly back and forth between the two, so there is noting really to even get mad about.

Until you can show me the number of white teens blown away for carrying lethal weapons like candy, that statement is utterly pointless.

Likewise, what, exactly, is your point about it being a Hispanic vs. African-American? If a black cop shot and killed an unarmed Latino assuming he was some "dirty immigrant", it would be fucked up and wrong. That the Hispanic killed and unarmed black kid because he seemed "like a thug" is fucked up and wrong.

We'll make a lot of progress if we stop trying to obfuscate the issue with smokescreen statements that have little in the way of relevance or truth.

edited 4th Apr '12 7:52:07 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor
Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#186: Apr 4th 2012 at 9:04:56 AM

For what it's worth I do think that WHY Zimmerman did it had as much to do with age as it did with color. Or to be more precise, that it was a black youth made it suspicious to him.

If it was a black middle-aged man, this wouldn't have happened either.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#187: Apr 4th 2012 at 9:54:03 AM

Someone mentioned earlier that Zimmerman had black friends. I say that don't matter at all. My dad has plenty of Indian friends, yet he says racist stuff about Indians like it's the most normal thing ever.

TL;DR: I thought we moved past the "I have black friends so that means I'm not racist" excuse.

EDIT: [up] That too.

edited 4th Apr '12 9:55:42 AM by 0dd1

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#188: Apr 4th 2012 at 9:59:56 AM

[up][up] Definitely true.

It was an honor
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#189: Apr 4th 2012 at 10:06:27 AM

While there may very well be racial components to the case, including Zimmerman's alleged motivation and the response by news pundits, from a legal or ethical point of view none of that matters. This would be just as tragic and unacceptable if it had been a case of same race violence, or if it had been motivated by something else. Of course, you could see that as a dig against all those people who wanted this to be about race.

Another point I was making is that, given the Florida law, the police may have had no choice but to let Zimmerman go.

FWIW- I think that this is really about when people should be allowed to kill other people. If they don't change the law, then it's only a matter of time before this happens again. And that may be one reason why the right wing wants to demonize Martin- as a way to keep people from criticizing Stand Your Ground laws (which itself could be the first step toward effective gun control).

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#190: Apr 4th 2012 at 10:13:50 AM

[up] Excellent points. Trying to make this solely a race issue is just as detrimental as saying race had nothing to do with it at all.

Likewise, there are a lot of things that caused the soft response from the police. Part of it is this thing with American police in general, and southern country cops in particular to never admit wrongdoing.

Part of it is this desire to see Stand Your Ground and carry laws undisturbed (both are laws I agree with and would not like to see abolished).

Part of it this country's reluctance in general to talk about the schisms we have in race and culture.

It was an honor
TheDeadMansLife Lover of masks. Since: Nov, 2009
Lover of masks.
#191: Apr 4th 2012 at 10:28:13 AM

@Phillpe I used hate crime statistics. Blacks do commit a disproportionate amount of hate crimes.

@Starship. You asked how much more would blacks need to take. This is complaint that blacks are treated unjustly. This not really the case. To flip it. How much more should whites take before they are allowed to lose their shit?

Please.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#192: Apr 4th 2012 at 10:48:03 AM

Both of you need to tone it down and stay on topic. This thread was locked once already, and if anyone starts to get personal, I will ask a mod to do it again.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
setnakhte That's terrifying. from inside your closet Since: Nov, 2010
That's terrifying.
#193: Apr 4th 2012 at 10:50:24 AM

[up][up]Where did you get these statistics? (Am genuinely curious.)

"Roll for whores."
Wicked223 from Death Star in the forest Since: Apr, 2009
#194: Apr 4th 2012 at 10:57:08 AM

I used hate crime statistics. Blacks do commit a disproportionate amount of hate crimes.

Most recent statistic I can find says this isn't true.

You can't even write racist abuse in excrement on somebody's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat!
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#195: Apr 4th 2012 at 10:57:36 AM

De Marquis - Both of who?

Dead Man - Everybody, I'm sure, feels persecuted in life. There are some groups that suffer more than others because of some inherent trait.

While all kids get picked on for various reasons, LGBT teens disproportionately seem to be bullied, to the point of suicide in some cases.

Everybody's religion get's mocked, but Muslims seem to take higher doses.

And as I said, while you can sit there and say, and might even believe, whites are treated unfairly, there's no way you could even suggest they suffer the same systemic discrimination and targeting by the police that blacks do.

If it's your personal feeling that they do, more power to you. If you're going to try to sell it as fact, then I wish you good luck with that, because it'll be awhile before any buys it.

It was an honor
TheDeadMansLife Lover of masks. Since: Nov, 2009
Lover of masks.
#196: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:22:38 AM

@Setnak The FBI hate crime report in combination with the CIA population statistics.

@Wicked 62.4% of hate crime commiters were white. The white population at the time of those statistics was 72.4%.

18.5% were black. The black population was 12.6%

@Starship I am not arguing from the position that whites are more oppressed than other racial groups. I am arguing from the position that your statement of "How much more do blacks need to take" can be dismissed as being detached from reality.

Please.
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#197: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:26:53 AM

I am not arguing from the position that whites are more oppressed than other racial groups. I am arguing from the position that your statement of "How much more do blacks need to take" can be dismissed as being detached from reality.

I'm good and confused now. The reality is that blacks are disproportionately targets of law enforcement; apparently, even from armed neighborhood patrols who aren't sworn officers of the law.

Where is my reality wrong? And if it isn't wrong, then I ask, how much more should we take?

It was an honor
TheDeadMansLife Lover of masks. Since: Nov, 2009
Lover of masks.
#198: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:30:54 AM

It's detached from reality on the basis that black officers are also in the group of oppressors and thus being black has no special qualifier about it.

Please.
johnnyfog Actual Wrestling Legend from the Zocalo Since: Apr, 2010 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Actual Wrestling Legend
#199: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:32:01 AM

That's ridiculous. Black overseers didn't render slavery colorblind.

I'm a skeptical squirrel
TheStarshipMaxima NCC - 1701 Since: Jun, 2009
NCC - 1701
#200: Apr 4th 2012 at 11:36:17 AM

[up] And Fog ninja's the shit outta me.

My ire with this whole thing was just as great when Sean Bell got executed on the day of his wedding by the police. The detective that emptied the most rounds into him was a bi-racial black Hispanic.

Was I a little less pissed since the cop was black?? Fuck no. I was more pissed.

This false correlation of black = criminal is so prevalent, blacks use it against each other.

The fact that a Hispanic rent-a-cop blasted a man that'd barely began his life bears this out. So again, how much more are we supposed to take?

edited 4th Apr '12 11:37:00 AM by TheStarshipMaxima

It was an honor

Total posts: 310
Top