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Coming out of the atheist closet help thread

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Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#226: Apr 17th 2013 at 7:02:06 AM

There is also the empathy part of the equation. "I shouldn't hurt people because it's not a very nice thing to do". That should occur on some level to anyone who isn't a complete sociopath.

Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#227: Apr 17th 2013 at 7:04:12 AM

[up] Yeah, that is what is confusing to me. I think empathy is, like morality, meaningless. I think that in a world with no meaning, it should be discarded along with any other code. But I feel it, and act according to the dictates of my empathy, which is weird. It is a shame it can't be turned off, because maybe then I'd be living in accordance with the truth.

That still doesn't quite resolve why I should help others. Aside from my own personal morality dictating so. That I can accept.

However, that still doesn't make my morality true. That still makes it false.

edited 17th Apr '13 7:07:29 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#228: Apr 17th 2013 at 7:08:59 AM

Humans are social creatures. We evolved to live in groups, and you can't do that with everyone just doing as they please and killing each other. Empathy is a means of constraining our behavior to facilitate survival.

Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#229: Apr 17th 2013 at 7:10:20 AM

[up] That's an Appeal to Inherent Nature. Just because humans are social creatures doesn't mean they should continue to be so.

edited 17th Apr '13 7:12:45 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#230: Apr 17th 2013 at 7:12:58 AM

Biology is a bitch. We have our drives for a reason, mostly because they made us more likely to survive to reproductive age at some point in history. You can ignore them if you want, but they'll always be there.

edited 17th Apr '13 7:16:39 AM by Elfive

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#231: Apr 17th 2013 at 7:15:33 AM

And it means you can function in a group. Take all empathy and necessity to countenance group-behaviour away, and... congrats: you've managed to somehow make yourself part of two scales at once. Welcome to the psychopathic-sociopathic scale and the autism spectrum. I doubt that particular combo would get any individual very far when faced with others, no matter how true to themselves and übermenschlich they feel. tongue

Might I sell you Secular Humanism, today? It's going cheap... and won't get you thought of as a dick. wink And, is as atheist or even as nihilistic as you care to be. It's a broad... church. wink

edited 17th Apr '13 7:20:00 AM by Euodiachloris

Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#232: Apr 17th 2013 at 7:18:15 AM

[up] Yeah, that is the problem, isn't it? You can't function alone. Not even lions can.

Ehh, I can take being able to make my own moral code. I just don't like the idea that it's false.

But maybe it's not false if you believe in it. Maybe truth and justice are lies, but we believe in them so they become, in a way, true.

Or maybe that's stupid and sociopaths are the only people who see the world for what it is.

I dunno. I'm not a philosopher. I'm just a college student. An autistic one, in fact.

edited 17th Apr '13 7:19:53 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#233: Apr 17th 2013 at 7:26:09 AM

[up]Don't knock it: autism trumps sociopathy any day of the week when it comes to caring about other people and really grocking them in ways they don't expect. waii You might not be able to do a damn thing the way you want to with expressing said caring, but at least it's there.

edited 17th Apr '13 7:29:41 AM by Euodiachloris

Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#234: Apr 17th 2013 at 7:27:49 AM

True and false don't really apply to subjective values like a moral code. As long as you have decent logical principles behind it, you're probably alright.

edited 17th Apr '13 7:28:15 AM by Elfive

Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#235: Apr 17th 2013 at 7:40:29 AM

[up] Then that's good enough for me.

Thanks for the help. I'm not particularly fond of nihilism. It's too depressing, even for me.

edited 17th Apr '13 7:55:27 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#236: Apr 17th 2013 at 12:00:47 PM

I've participated in several discussions about morality on the Fora.

Here's one post of mine that explains how I would answer the questions that've been asked in this thread recently. It might be off-topic but if you're interested in this stuff my post explains one point of view that I believe is very common among atheists.

It's a long post but I hope it's worth a read.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#237: Apr 17th 2013 at 1:05:43 PM

Now that's just weird. What, then, stops you from killing or taking advantage of others? Empathy? Lack of power or motivation? After all, if you have no rules, then surely nothing should get in the way of acquiring pleasure by any means necessary.

...But I do have rules. I just don't consider those rules to be facts. Instead, those rules are just stuff that I choose to do our of empathy for other people. I also contend that all morality is not fact but stuff people choose to do for one reason or another, be it empathy or fear or strategy or something else.

You've acknowledged that rules are pretty much laid down arbitrarily, so what's to stop a person with sufficient power from taking it by force?

Yes, they're arbitrary, but that doesn't mean they're bad. Every moral system is arbitrary.

I just don't like the idea that it's false.

It's not false, in my opinion. As an expressivist, I'm a non-cognitivist, so I don't think that moral statements can be true or false. They just aren't truth-apt. Instead, they're expressions of how you feel on certain issues. I don't like killing, so I consider it to be wrong.

Maybe truth and justice are lies, but we believe in them so they become, in a way, true.

They aren't lies, either. Instead, they're things that we created. It's not that they were false until we believed in them. It's that they did not exist until we came up with them.

...Well, maybe not truth, but only maybe on that.

Anyway, personally I'm a utilitarian, sort of. Rather than focusing on raising the average utility, I give preference to raising the lowest utility. In addition, since I value more than happiness, I include more than happiness in my utility calculation.

[up] Very well put.

BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#238: Apr 17th 2013 at 2:31:16 PM

I meant to say in my previous post that part of the reason I linked to a general philosophy thread was to point out that this discussion would be more at home there.

I can see the point of view that someone in the process of realising that they're atheist would be struggling with this if they previously assumed that morality was absolutely true and came from a divine source.

Still, a topic as broad as the source of morality will probably consume any thread that it emerges in so maybe the general philosophy thread would be a good place for this derail to go.

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#239: Apr 18th 2013 at 12:57:11 AM

I crossposted my above post in the General Philosophy thread. Please respond to it there.

Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#240: Apr 18th 2013 at 5:13:55 AM

[up][up] Alright, fair enough. I'm moving there.

Apologies for the derail, Best Of.

edited 18th Apr '13 5:23:32 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#241: Apr 18th 2013 at 5:34:15 AM

Thread Hopper

Haha! I don't expect I'll ever come out of the closet! Last time someone asked me what my religious beliefs were, I said with a Finger Wag and a bright smile, "It's a se-cret".

Usually I just focus on being a secular humanist, and bypass or ignore any theological discussions. It's quite easy to get religious people to admit that the world is functionally the same whether there is a god or not (because free will, helps those who help themselves, and is impotent before chariots of iron), and from then on we focus on actually discussing problems and solutions. Rather than wondering "What would God want me to do?", we go straight to the next logical step; "The right thing. But what's the right thing?". And then it gets rolling.

So I'm in the closet, and I don't plan to ever leave, thank you very much.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaptainKatsura Decoy from    Poland    Since: Jul, 2011
Decoy
#242: Apr 18th 2013 at 5:38:07 AM

[up]We found out God's kryptonite.

My President is Funny Valentine.
Elfive (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#243: Apr 18th 2013 at 5:41:43 AM

Iron. Clearly he is one of the Fae.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#244: Apr 18th 2013 at 5:44:52 AM

Judges 1:19 suckah:

And the LORD was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.

A cool site.

edited 18th Apr '13 5:45:12 AM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CaptainKatsura Decoy from    Poland    Since: Jul, 2011
Decoy
#245: Apr 18th 2013 at 5:45:06 AM

I think Iron Man would be even more super-effective.

My President is Funny Valentine.
Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#246: Apr 18th 2013 at 6:13:54 AM

[up][up][up] ...Oh, Crap!. Now I'm hoping God isn't real. (As opposed to merely not caring if God was real.)

edited 18th Apr '13 6:17:16 AM by Icarael

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
BestOf FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC! from Finland Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: Falling within your bell curve
FABRICATI DIEM, PVNC!
#247: Apr 18th 2013 at 6:29:51 AM

I'm sorry if I'm annoying you by dropping links and quotes to/from my old posts in other threads, but when I want to say something that I remember saying before I think it's justified to use the old post. If this does annoy you feel free to ignore the rest of this post.

I've talked before about why I'm not just an atheist, but also an antitheist.

I'll quote some of the important bits - and it's going to be wall-of-text-y because in this case I want to explain my position unambiguously rather than tersely; I'm not eloquent enough to do both:

An antitheist is a person who is opposed to God, or doesn't wish that God exists. The term is also often used to refer to a position against organised religion or against religious beliefs. I'm an antitheist on all those counts, except that I'm not against God as such, as I don't believe that he exists.

I don't hope that God exists. As I said, I don't believe that he does; and this belief is not rooted in my hope that there is or isn't a God, as what you hope for should have no bearing on what you believe. So even if I did wish that God existed, I still wouldn't believe it, any more than I would believe in an afterlife if I wished it were true. (I don't believe in an afterlife, and I don't want one.)

I have no reason to hope that God exists. He would be an authority with power over me, but I would not have elected him. Unless he could justify his power over me on my terms, I would not accept it. So "I can send you to Hell" would not convince me, and neither would "I made you." If I were to create a sentient artificial life-form, I would not assume that I have authority over it.

...

I think that all of the gods that I've read about are unpleasant. I don't want to have to deal with them. And I don't want to have anyone dictate morality to me. I want to figure out morality through philosophy, and I know I have to come to terms with my internal impulses (such as altruism.)

The God that I want to deal with the least is one that judges me for my actions and my thoughts (which I don't think can be justly punished in any case, ) and one that makes me live on after my body dies and sends me to Heaven or Hell based on his own criteria. If I knew that someone had been sent to Hell, I would be unable to enjoy Heaven; and in any case, I would not accept my sentence if it wasn't explained to me on my own terms.

A divine authority is a subversion of the human endeavour to build a good society and to live together in a meaningful way. In my opinion, we can consider that quest meaningful only if we are independent. If we are commanded to live a certain way, our experience loses its meaning.

Good deeds committed in the hope of Heaven or the fear of Hell are hypocritical in my opinion, and the thought that some people base their life on that is utterly depressing. The reason that I commit good deeds and refrain from bad ones is my solidarity towards other members of my species, and I don't need anything from outside to feel good about helping others.

Similarly, a God that is used to deal with mystery - the God of the Gaps - is to me an attack on the human yearning for knowledge and understanding. I have no problem with admitting my ignorance when it comes to questions that I can't yet answer; and this creates in me a very human drive to seek understanding.

If I know of a question that no one can answer yet, I'm thrilled about it. The things that we do understand are very important for me, and I derive endless emotional satisfaction from learning them. To know that there's more is wonderful.

If someone offers God as an answer to a question, I feel that they are forfeiting the quest for genuine understanding, and doing humanity a great disservice.

So not only do I not wish that there is a God, I also wish that there isn't one.

I wish that God doesn't exist because I want moral independence. And I wish God doesn't exist so that the mysteries of the universe are fundamentally solvable, even if in practice we can never get around to answering all of them.

But my hope that there isn't a God is not the reason I don't believe in him; instead, I don't believe in God because there is no reason that I should believe in God, any more than there is a reason to believe in unicorns (and I'll freely admit that I do hope those existed.)

edited 18th Apr '13 6:30:53 AM by BestOf

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.
Icarael is All Elite from The Taguig Sprawl Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
is All Elite
#248: Apr 18th 2013 at 6:55:43 AM

[up] Fair enough. I see your point, and that's pretty sound reasoning.

"Stealing is a crime and drugs is a crime too BUT if you steal drugs the two crimes cancel out and it’s like basically doing a good."
Boredman from the divided circus tent of america (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#249: Apr 18th 2013 at 9:47:58 AM

I'm pretty sure none of those things are intrinsic to all religions, though. I understand your reasoning for being an atheist, but your reasons for being an antitheist seem more like they're focused on a few religions that are practiced wrong, not religion in general.

edited 18th Apr '13 9:52:08 AM by Boredman

pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#250: Apr 19th 2013 at 12:29:00 PM

My reasons for being an antitheist are rooted in a deep dissatisfaction with the powerful - and, to me, extremely undeserved - influence religion wields in all aspects of public life. I think it's societal poison, essentially. I don't mean to offend anyone, but I'm not going to say that "I'm an atheist, but I appreciate the place of religion in human society" because to do so would be fundamentally dishonest.

So I'm in the closet, and I don't plan to ever leave, thank you very much.

Why is that, exactly?

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.

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