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SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#76: Apr 2nd 2012 at 2:10:01 PM

That is true, but is there a way to attract interest to long-stale threads that doesn't rely on the threat of a ticking clock, other than mass-bumps?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#77: Apr 2nd 2012 at 2:19:22 PM

A ticking clock is good. Locking threads with unresolved problems isn't. Neither are mass-bumps.

Better would be to take your earlier suggestions: move the wick-migration to a separate, dedicated, stickied thread; then find out the typical number of threads that stay active at once and cut the TRS cap down to that.

edited 2nd Apr '12 2:20:35 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#78: Apr 2nd 2012 at 2:22:05 PM

Hmm...given that we are having some more improvement options for TRS, should we make a new TRS reform/operation thread?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#79: Apr 2nd 2012 at 3:19:41 PM

[up] Sure.

Speaking of c/locking, it strikes me as obvious that a thread with a star should never be c/locked until the work is done; and a thread with an active crowner should never be c/locked, but instead the crowner should be called.

Of course the bot could easily be coded to ignore those kinds of thread.

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#80: Apr 2nd 2012 at 7:28:48 PM

[up]But sometimes, if a thread stalls, it's because the discussion has reached an end and it's time to put options in a crowner. No bot can figure out if this is the case.

I just don't think that this can be done by robots, any more than robots can be forum moderators.

edited 2nd Apr '12 7:29:37 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#81: Apr 3rd 2012 at 1:30:26 AM

[up] True enough. But if the robot Clocks threads rather than making them disappear, then a human can respond by hollering for a crowner.

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#82: Apr 3rd 2012 at 9:42:21 AM

Yes, as long as mods don't routinely lock threads that ran out their clocks.

But does clocking something even make people more willing or able to pay attention to it? The underlying problem that I see is that the cap is too high, and people simply can't keep track of that many threads simultaneously, so they work on a smaller number at once. Until that gets solved, trying to draw attention to threads by clocking or bumping them will be a zero-sum game.

edited 3rd Apr '12 9:43:45 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#83: Apr 3rd 2012 at 10:05:12 AM

If a thread gets clocked and there isn't any significant progress (that is, if there are no new posts at all, only bumps or rehashments of already-made points etc.), then they must be locked at clock expiry - that's the point of the clock after all.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#84: Apr 3rd 2012 at 10:37:05 AM

I disagree. Just because the problem is being ignored by tropers doesn't mean it's not a problem. It means tropers are ignoring valid threads. Instead of treating the symptom, the focus should be on treating the cause.

Now if the person bumping thinks its a problem, and most of the responses said it wasn't a problem, then it's worth locking.

edited 3rd Apr '12 10:37:44 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#85: Apr 3rd 2012 at 10:40:31 AM

If there is no interest of participation, we can do nothing about it. We'll never get people who are not interested to do things, despite of how much a problem it is. You can't force anybody to chime in the discussion.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#86: Apr 3rd 2012 at 10:50:35 AM

[up]If there is actually no interest. But I don't agree you can assume that's the case TRS-wide, in every ignored thread. I think that many threads are forgotten only because there are too many to keep track of.

It's pretty hard to tell why something is being ignored, when there are too many threads for anyone to keep track of even if they are interested in all of them. That is why I think lowering the cap further, and moving wick migration, are necessary.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#87: Apr 3rd 2012 at 10:58:03 AM

After two bumps but no one responding, you can safely assume no one cares.

Also, even if you lower the cap, it will just result in people not paying attention to tropes they care nothing about. The people in TRS are few, and not everyone cares enough to work.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#88: Apr 3rd 2012 at 11:20:35 AM

[up] So don't just bump. Bump and suggest "I propose this solution, does anyone object?" or make a crowner and then bump.

ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#89: Apr 3rd 2012 at 11:46:45 AM

[up][up]No, you can't assume nobody cares about any of those, blanketly, because you don't have any way to eliminate the other possibility: that people have limited time and too many topics are up at once. If you lower the cap to the number that are actually [observed to be] active at any one time, like Septimius Heap suggested, then it will become much easier to tell what people actually care about.

For example, I have more threads watchlisted, that I honestly care about, than I can actually work on at any one time. So I work on a few at a time while ignoring the rest. That doesn't mean I don't care about those other threads, only that there's 24 hours in a day and I do have a life. Sometimes there have been more TRS threads at once that I cared about than I could actually participate in, so I had to pick some to ignore for a time. When I finish one, I take up another. If it was locked without resolution in the meantime, then I can't move on to the problem it addressed, even though I would have. And how can a TRS thread even be reopened, if the TRS stays full?

Another case in point, when a thread is Pending Final Action, and suddenly everybody ignores it. Should you conclude that everybody who voted for that Final Action retroactively didn't actually care, even though they voted for it? That the problem, which they all agreed was a problem, retroactively isn't a problem anymore? That it should be ignored and locked? No, that doesn't make sense.

We both agree there aren't enough dedicated editors for the number of problems. But to me, it's logical to conclude that some are being ignored for lack of time and people, not lack of interest. It seems inevitable, if there are not enough people.

I recognize that there comes a point when the cap should not be lowered any further, and that practicality demands the wiki deals with whatever editor shortage exists. But at the same time, going too far in the other direction hurts the wiki.

edited 3rd Apr '12 1:33:55 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#90: Apr 4th 2012 at 7:09:53 AM

The biggest problem I see with TRS is that people assume that having crowner called means that the problem is resolved. People (often including myself) would rather go on and discuss new problems (or dick around in forums we host that are completly unrelated to tropes or media) then migrate several hundred, or even several thousand wicks.

The second biggest problem is that really basic, commen sense, non-controversial minor solutions to obvious problems tend to be really slow in happening, because non-conterversial, non-sexy pages don't attract discussion. Trying to get enough people to participate in the Thanksgiving thread I started so that a consensus could be declared felt like pulling teeth, even though there was zero debate about the fact that we had duplicate pages and no opposition to my proposed solution.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#91: Apr 4th 2012 at 7:19:38 AM

[up]The only way to break up such zero-interest things would be something like "Here's my proposed solution. If there are no objections in <reasonable time span>, I'll execute it"

Or ask for a crowner.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#92: Apr 4th 2012 at 8:07:49 AM

[up]I've always been leery/afraid to do that, that I'd be overstepping bounds.

Then there's times when there are objections, but nobody proposes anything better. Or you write a draft of a new description, people have reasonable objections, but nobody is willing to try their own hand at writing one. After <span of time> is it allowable to just use the flawed description, in place of the previous one that caused misuse?

It's frustrating.

edited 4th Apr '12 8:09:45 AM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Catbert Since: Jan, 2012
#93: Apr 4th 2012 at 8:28:21 AM

Sometimes you get crowners where weeks go by and maybe all of 8 people vote. In recent threads I kept having to bump stuff again and again to get 15 votes.

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#94: Apr 4th 2012 at 8:32:15 AM

You need to go here. It won't get you a lot of votes, but it should take you up to 15.

I agree it's impossibly frustrating, but participation in TRS is small either way.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#95: Apr 4th 2012 at 9:02:48 AM

If nobody but 8 people care over a reaonsable timespan, then 8 people is a consensus. Fifteen is a completely arbitrary amount, and there is absolutely no rule that says there's a 15-vote minimum.

lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#96: Apr 4th 2012 at 9:07:26 AM

15 is the minimum number mods have stated they prefer when they call crowners. So, most of the time you need 15 to have the crowner called either way.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
MorganWick (Elder Troper)
#97: Apr 4th 2012 at 9:35:37 AM

The only way to break up such zero-interest things would be something like "Here's my proposed solution. If there are no objections in <reasonable time span>, I'll execute it"

I'd prefer to make sure you got some input, even if just three other posters, so that you know there was someone around to object.

One idea I had is that, when you launch a YKTTW, you automatically and permanently get notified by PM whenever the trope gets put in TRS.

At any rate, this is starting to drift into another "let's fix TRS" thread.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#98: Apr 4th 2012 at 10:58:35 AM

I suppose we could holler and ask a mod for input on a quick fix.

Fight smart, not fair.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#99: Apr 14th 2012 at 3:41:21 AM

Bumping. I think that there are two problems with crowner calls that need to be addressed:

  1. Zero Context Calls: When you call a crowner, don't just say "Crowner called". Explain what exactly needs to be done.
  2. Mod action needed: When you call a crowner, do any needed mod activity straightaway rather than waiting for another holler. That is, star a thread if it has only scutwork to do, or hook another blank crowner if it's needed.

edited 14th Apr '12 3:41:30 AM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#100: Apr 14th 2012 at 8:09:14 AM

I think that in particular the Star icon should be used more often.


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