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Wick Backlog in TRS

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ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#1: Mar 17th 2012 at 1:07:47 PM

It's becoming clear that there's a huge backlog of ignored wicks to clean up from TRS threads. I've seen at least two pages whose TRS threads were locked before anybody bothered to fix their wicks, creating quite awkward situations.

What Do You Mean, It's Not Awesome? has been in limbo in the middle of a rename for a few weeks since I offered to create the new pages, but nobody has stepped up to move discussion, create redirects, help move wicks, etc. so now we have duplicates of that page and its subpages, just sitting there being stupid.

This kind of work keeps bogging down TRS threads. Once the decisions are made, nobody wants to do any work, so it falls to whoever opened the thread (whether or not they have time) or is ignored. If it's too much for any single person to do, it just isn't done at all. Stale threads sit around, ignored, taking up space, and genuine problems don't get fixed.

Proposed Solution:
This was originally Septimus Heap's idea I think. Give TRS a Wick Migration thread similar to the Namespace Migration thread. When wicks are the only things left to do on a TRS thread, the project can move to that wick thread with a link to the TRS thread that had the details. Then the original TRS thread can be closed. Pin the wick thread somewhere so it doesn't fall to the bottom page.

Maybe that's not the ideal solution, but something must be done.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#2: Mar 17th 2012 at 1:20:34 PM

Well, part of the thing is, when you propose to take over the new page, most of the time that means you're taking over doing the whole move. People assume it, because honestly that's what happens in most cases. That's likely part of it.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
lu127 Paper Master from 異界 Since: Sep, 2011 Relationship Status: Crazy Cat Lady
#3: Mar 17th 2012 at 1:21:53 PM

Discussions cannot be moved by someone either way—you need a mod for that.

If you need help with wick migration, you go to Special Efforts.

I agree that this is a huge problem, though. Unfortunately, not enough people care to clean up wicks.

There was a suggestion in Tech Wishlist to add a script which automatically changes wicks, but that may cause crash problems.

"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#4: Mar 17th 2012 at 1:34:16 PM

[up][up]So when somebody says "I can create the new page and copy content, but don't know how to make redirects and cannot move 3000 wicks by myself." everyone else sees "I will move the whole page and discussion myself, and do all 3000 wicks myself!" ?

How can any one person be expected to clean up 3000 wicks alone? That's just insane. complaint tangent

Cleaning wicks should be a group project, not dumped on the nearest schmuck or the OP. It certainly should not be ignored entirely while the thread is locked, which has happened before. And to be a group project, with group responsibility, it needs a group thread on Special Efforts and/or TRS that's pinned to the top.

A script, aside from the server capacity issue, is not the answer in the case of renames because:

  • Sentences may need rewording unless the rename is a snowclone of the old one (not common)
  • Some wicks may have to change to some other trope, which needs a human looking at and evaluation them, for reasons:
    • The page was redefined or split in TRS, and some wicks no longer apply
    • A subtrope or missing supertrope was created and some wicks should now point there instead
    • There was misuse in the wicks that needs cleaning

I think that a script could, at least in theory, work for at least some namespace migration. But not with TRS wick cleanup, unfortunately.

edited 17th Mar '12 1:54:08 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#5: Mar 17th 2012 at 1:54:53 PM

I think the main issue with making it automatic is not so much server crashing (while it's been the main argument, it would depend about who runs the script), but that it messes up alphabetization and grammar. In any case, it's not a viable solution*

For reference, the tropes that are affected by this issue are:

Creating such a thread and sandbox would just need someone making the thread in TRS(to use the tag system to link tot he sandbox, to keep the connection to TRS and to discourage people from using Special Efforts as a dumping ground) and someone pinning it, just like Wick Migration and Sandbox.Wick Namespace Migration.

The fact that the basic concept works for namespacing might imply that it works for general wick cleanup too.

edited 17th Mar '12 1:55:12 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#6: Mar 17th 2012 at 2:03:53 PM

This is what the special efforts subforum is for: jobs that are too big for one person to reasonably be expected to do alone. If you spot one in TRS that has a huge number of wicks to clean and move, first check to see that a Special Efforts Thread doesn't already exist for it, and if there' isn't one, make one and say so in a post in the TRS thread.

Special efforts threads seem to work best if someone serves as cheerleader and progress-keeper in one of the first few posts, keeping a tally of which alphabetical sections are done. (Take a look at the locked thread for Understatement to see what I mean. Either a mod can do the tallying or whoever made the post can. But not knowing which sections have been done, and not really seeing any progress leads to stalling and abandonment of the Special Efforts.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#7: Mar 17th 2012 at 2:08:53 PM

[up]I think the problem there is that being a cheerleader is only a little less effort-demanding than doing it all by yourself. And in this particular case - What Do You Mean, It's Not Awesome? - it didn't work at all, despite the attempt. Certainly not as good as Wick namespace migration, which is why I'm suggesting to do it all in a dedicated thread rather than splitting it between various threads, as the current approach seems to entail.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#8: Mar 17th 2012 at 2:33:24 PM

Yeah, one cannot cheerlead a team consisting of nobody. (The only reply to my appeals was somebody telling me to do it all myself.) I tried cheerleading the disambiguation wick cleanup for World Of Darkness, too. On Special Efforts. That project fizzled out, also.

edited 17th Mar '12 2:40:10 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#9: Mar 17th 2012 at 2:39:46 PM

Yeah, I see this diagnosis:

  • Running cleanup in TRS doesn't work:
    • That sort of job is very different from what people in TRS usually do.
    • You really can't do it in most cases without first Archive Binge the TRS thread.
    • People willing to do that work are drained away by Special Efforts, also thanks to the problems mentioned above
    • Forum-haters don't do it at all.
    • Such TRS threads are often prematurely closed
  • Running it in Special Efforts works better, but:
    • You need someone willing to babysit the effort
    • Forum-haters don't do it at all
    • It takes a good forum-wiki communication, which excludes people without much forum connections
    • It splits willing people between various Special Efforts threads.

Putting all the things in a sandbox has the advantage that it doesn't need forum access or Archive Binge-ing, and it's centralized. Sure, you need to work out which description of the goal to use (if it's cleanup), but you could use a thread to work it out.

edited 17th Mar '12 2:40:16 PM by SeptimusHeap

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#10: Mar 19th 2012 at 5:07:45 PM

Does anybody else have a suggestion for solving this problem?*

Any particular objections to Septimus Heap's idea?

edited 19th Mar '12 5:08:28 PM by ArcadesSabboth

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#11: Mar 20th 2012 at 10:57:29 AM

What would help is not a script per se, but partial automation. For example, it would help if from the Wick List I could open a small edit box that edits not the entire page text, but only the paragraph containing that particular wick (and the previous/next paragraphs). This makes it much easier to find things and quickly fix them.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#12: Mar 20th 2012 at 11:00:26 AM

I think there is a Tech Wishlist thread about that, but without the edit idea.

However, I don't think that it would help making cleanup faster.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#13: Mar 20th 2012 at 11:33:00 AM

[up] Maybe not, I'm just brainstorming.

I do find that finding where exactly the wick is in the middle of a long page takes up more time than it should, and since computers are good at finding things, this is something that could be automated.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#14: Mar 20th 2012 at 11:41:52 AM

^ That's what "Control-F" or "Find in this page"/"Find again" (or whatever your browser's search function) is for

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#15: Mar 20th 2012 at 11:45:14 AM

Yes, I always use Ctrl+F. The only problem that could be here that it takes up 10-15% of renaming time.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Spark9 Since: Nov, 2010
#16: Mar 20th 2012 at 11:55:19 AM

[up] Well, making the process 10-15% faster strikes me as worth doing.

What do you feel takes up the majority of the remaining 85-90%?

Nocturna Since: May, 2011
#17: Mar 20th 2012 at 11:56:18 AM

Ctrl+F (or whatever the Mac equivalent is if you use a Mac) and search for the Wiki Word. It should take you right to it.

Edit: Completely and totally ninja'd.

edited 20th Mar '12 11:57:00 AM by Nocturna

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#18: Mar 20th 2012 at 3:29:57 PM

[up][up]About equally: Opening and closing tabs, renaming and alphabetizing.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ArcadesSabboth from Mother Earth Since: Oct, 2011
#19: Mar 20th 2012 at 6:07:27 PM

I end up spending a lot of time compulsively fixing badly worded examples, word cruft, crappy indentation, and natter that I almost always find while looking for wicks.

Oppression anywhere is a threat to democracy everywhere.
Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#20: Mar 21st 2012 at 5:22:14 AM

@The last few posts:

Automating the stuff done manually via ctrl-F has limitations. Using "StuffToTrope" is the easiest way to do a wick, it's not the only way. There's also {{Stuff To Trope}} and {{Stuff|totrope}} or {{Stuff To|trope}}, not to mention the variations for works that are spread across multiple namespaces or when StuffToTrope is a redirect on Main/ pointing to several different works that happen to have or be commonly known by the same title.

edited 21st Mar '12 5:24:00 AM by Nohbody

All your safe space are belong to Trump
Osmium from Germany Since: Dec, 2010
#21: Mar 21st 2012 at 10:15:49 AM

I never feel like searching the name takes up to much time, normally this is done pretty fast. To prevent [up]this problem search for only one specific word of the trope name e.g. when renaming Gonna Fly Now Montage I only searched vor Montage. By doing this you will find the name no matter how it was linked. (Of course this only works if the trope name has at least one really specific word)

Most time is spend on rewriting examples or alphabetizing. And this can not be done automatically.

Nohbody "In distress", my ass. from Somewhere in Dixie Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Mu
"In distress", my ass.
#22: Mar 21st 2012 at 11:44:06 AM

^ That's what I meant, even if I didn't mention the "replace" part of "find and replace" because I'm a forgetful idiot. tongue

All your safe space are belong to Trump
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